Not Everyone

[Silverhair]

He is found by multitudes in the pages of Holy Scripture, he is available to everyone believing.

Believing a doctrine that has it's basis in pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine.

No thanks, I will just believe the word of God as found in His Holy Word.

 

[Silverhair]

Notwithstanding God's predestination is most certain and unalterable, so that no elect person can perish nor any reprobate be saved, yet it does not follow from thence that all precepts, reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of man, are useless, vain and insignificant.

Now there is a grand piece is failed logic.

If everything is set in stone then all the reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of man, are useless, vain and insignificant as nothing will change.

Your man Zanchius does not do to well when thinking things through to the logic end does he. Perhaps it is time you started getting your views from a better source.

 

[Zaatar71]

It just takes one verse to show that view is wrong.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It would seem that Zanchius did not have that verse in his bible or more likely he just ignored it. But in either case his view is worthless and not biblical.

Sorry SH, It seems as if you did not read his accurate quote correctly. Slow down, take a moment and read what he actually said, not what your mind is trying to twist it into.

 

[Zaatar71]

Believing a doctrine that has it's basis in pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine.

No thanks, I will just believe the word of God as found in His Holy Word.

This is a deflection , having nothing to do with scripture once again

 

[Zaatar71]

Now there is a grand piece is failed logic.

If everything is set in stone then all the reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of man, are useless, vain and insignificant as nothing will change.

Your man Zanchius does not do to well when thinking things through to the logic end does he. Perhaps it is time you started getting your views from a better source.

Sorry you still do not understand what he is saying. Try again tomorrow after you get a good nights sleep!

 

[Silverhair]

The Spirit gives a new heart, enabling a person to repent and believe

Actually the Holy Spirit gives a new heart in response to the person repenting and believing.

 

[Silverhair]

Sorry SH, It seems as if you did not read his accurate quote correctly. Slow down, take a moment and read what he actually said, not what your mind is trying to twist it into.

Is this not what the quote says?
"Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

This is what the bible says
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Sure looks like Zanchius missed the boat on that one.

He is reading his religion into the text rather than getting it from the text.

 

[Silverhair]

This is a deflection , having nothing to do with scripture once again

The view you are presenting via Zanchius's words do not have anything to do with the word of God but do reflect the views that Augustine brought into the church from his pagan teachings.

 

[Silverhair]

Sorry you still do not understand what he is saying. Try again tomorrow after you get a good nights sleep!

Not hard to understand once you take off the distorted glasses you seem to have.

Notwithstanding God's predestination is most certain and unalterable, so that no elect person can perish nor any reprobate be saved, yet it does not follow from thence that all precepts, reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of man, are useless, vain and insignificant.

It is obvious that Zanchius got his view from the WCF or LBCF as they attempt to use the same failed logic. God determines all things but then He does not determine all things.

Care to explain how precepts, reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of man can alter something that is certain and unalterable.

It should be about now that you tell me I do not understand Calvinism or some other such silliness.

It would seem it is you that needs the sleep so you can have a clear head as you do not appear to understand what Zanchius is saying.

If you want to believe the errant word of a man, no matter how well intended, over the word of God then do so but I will trust the word of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, we sure did choose our own way, just as Paul told the believers at Rome under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

" And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." ( Romans 1:28-32 )

His word says that He does ( Daniel 4:35 ).

Adam made that choice, and it only went downhill from there.
What's more, we would have done the same thing in his place.

Please read Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3 again, Charlie. We really have put ourselves in a no-win situation, as a race...
We took that free choice to obey Him or to choose our own way, and look what it got us;
This is a miserable world, Charlie, and it's all our fault.

I'm also very glad that I have a new one to go to and it's all His doing... because He was not willing that any of the beloved perish, but that they all come to repentance. ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

We agree on so much here, except that God always gets His way with man.

You know that it's not God's will that man rejects His Son. You won't admit it here but in your heart you know the truth.

God allows man to do the things He has revealed to us is wrong, even to the point of rejecting of His Son.

Man chooses his own way in this miserable life, and yes, it is all our own fault.

Man does not control God's salvation, he controls his own destiny by a God-given choice.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

It is extremely unfortunate to find such tripe as this on a Christian message board!

The “quote” Is NOT a quote from the Bible! Rather it is sloppy paste job from ancient Hebrew poetry and a doxology.

Psalms 115:3. Our God is in the heavens;
he does whatever he pleases. (NRSV)

Isaiah 46:10. declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,” (NRSV)

Ephesians 1:11. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, (NRSV)

Ancient Hebrew poetry does NOT express objective information—it expresses feelings and emotions. Doxologies from the New Testament do NOT express objective information any more than do eulogies at a funeral. However, ancient Hebrew prose when found in the genre of literature known as the historical narrative does express objective information;

1. The word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time, saying,
2. “Get up, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you.”
3. So Jonah set out and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly large city, a three days' walk across.
4. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's walk. And he cried out, "Forty days more, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
5. And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and everyone, great and small, put on sackcloth.
6. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7. Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water.
8. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.
9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind! (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46; John 5:29. Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

Jerome Zanchius​

Have you ever read &studied Baruch Spinoza… in short he denied Christ…typical of his years of rabbinical studies. Spinoza denied Christ as massiah and denied determinism. Tell me, was he saved?

Was Spinoza a heretic or a theologian? - UW Stroum Center for Jewish Studies

Spinoza, the philosopher who was excommunicated from Judaism, distinguished between religion and superstition. What did Spinoza teach about Jewish faith?

jewishstudies.washington.edu

 

[Van]

All men universally are not elected to salvation, it is undeniable from Scripture that God will not in the last day save every individual of mankind! (Daniel 12:2; Matthew 25:46; John 5:29. Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

Jerome Zanchius​

Did anyone claim all of humanity was elected for salvation? Nope.

Is it "undeniable from Scripture" that God will not save all of humanity? Nope

Did God "design" to save all humanity? Here we must ask what "design" means. Did God desire to save all humanity? Yes, 1 Timothy 2:4. This is "undeniable from Scripture."

Did God desire to say all people by means of compulsion? Nope. Does God desire to save all people whose faith He credits as righteousness. You bet!

The issue is not that no plan of God can be thwarted, the issue is what is God's redemption plan according to scripture, not according to man-made doctrine. Recall, "everyone believing into Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[Van]

In Hebrews 2:9 we see that Christ tasted death for everyone. The verse cannot be rewritten to say Christ tasted death for "not everyone."

 

[Zaatar71]

Actually the Holy Spirit gives a new heart in response to the person repenting and believing.

Where does the bible say anything close to that? let's look at EZk 36 together...
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

Now..12x in these 6 verses God says he is going to do something to His people. Can you agree? Do you see where it says I will?
Show me where you have any basis whatsoever for saying that man acts first, and then God responds. Do you see it in any of these 6 verses??? I do not see it here, or anywhere.

 

[Zaatar71]

Is this not what the quote says?
"Therefore, say we, God never designed to save every individual, since, if He had, every individual would and must be saved, for "His counsel shall stand, and He will do all His pleasure."

This is what the bible says
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Sure looks like Zanchius missed the boat on that one.

He is reading his religion into the text rather than getting it from the text.

Even after quoting his quote, you do not see it! he said...".GOD NEVER DESIGNED TO SAVE EVERY INDIVIDUAL"

Whatever 1Tim2 is teaching, it is in no way teaching that God has designed, planned and purposed to save all men. You cannot get there from what 1tim2 says. Zanchius as a fellow believer, not an inspired Apostle, clearly see's from scripture that God has never, designed, planned or purposed to save all men. He was 100% correct, you have misunderstood him and using your phrase, it is you who have missed the boat on this!
Does that clarify it for you my friend?

 

[Charlie24]

Even after quoting his quote, you do not see it! he said...".GOD NEVER DESIGNED TO SAVE EVERY INDIVIDUAL"

Whatever 1Tim2 is teaching, it is in no way teaching that God has designed, planned and purposed to save all men. You cannot get there from what 1tim2 says. Zanchius as a fellow believer, not an inspired Apostle, clearly see's from scripture that God has never, designed, planned or purposed to save all men. He was 100% correct, you have misunderstood him and using your phrase, it is you who have missed the boat on this!
Does that clarify it for you my friend?

If you must, then deny that Scripture says God desires all men everywhere be saved, make yourself of no credibility.

God's desire for all men to be saved does not mean all men everywhere will be saved.

It means God has given man the free will to choose his own way, which you again deny.

 

[Zaatar71]

The view you are presenting via Zanchius's words do not have anything to do with the word of God but do reflect the views that Augustine brought into the church from his pagan teachings.

And yet, I can biblically present and support Zanchius teaching on this, and you could not begin to refute it biblically. Oh you would oppose anyone who believes the doctrines of grace, but you cannot biblically do it. To jump to your provisionist idea of Augustine/as agnostic influencing Calvin is totally bogus I am afraid, but you think it works for you as a nice sound bite. All it does in reality is give you an attempted loophole to escape scriptural interaction.

 

[Zaatar71]

If you must, then deny that Scripture says God desires all men everywhere be saved, make yourself of no credibility.

God's desire for all men to be saved does not mean all men everywhere will be saved.

It means God has given man the free will to choose his own way, which you again deny.

No... what it does mean as I understand the statement much different from you in a way that you do not get or agree with.let me try and illustrate it for you.... We can say
1] God would like it if everyone would not sin
2] God would be happy indeed , if all men had a desire to be saved by God, in God's way.
3] God would be pleased if men would keep the 10 commandments
4]God would like if no one would get divorced
5]God would be happy if men did not have lustful thoughts
6]God would desire that there was no war in the world
7]So in the same way, in 1tim2;4 Who will have all men to be saved, It does not say at all, that God will do everything necessary to save all men everywhere. It does not say that God has decreed destined and purposed to save all men ever born, it is not found in the bible anywhere.

 

[Zaatar71]

It is extremely unfortunate to find such tripe as this on a Christian message board!

Sorry, you are off base on this. your philosophical take on "hebrew Poetry" has nothing whatsoever to do with the quoted material from Zanchius,

The “quote” Is NOT a quote from the Bible! Rather it is sloppy paste job from ancient Hebrew poetry and a doxology.

No...It has nothing to do with your hebrew poetry deflection. It deals with biblical truth.
Your attempt to steer away from the plain statements is a fail on your part. Thanks for posting however.