Where does God's Wrath Go?

[JonC]

For the past decade or two I have often been asked the question "Where does God's wrath go?"

At first I thought this was a joke, as it is a nonsense question. Wrath is not a material thing. It does not "go" anywhere.

Take an argument where a father who is angry at his son. The two make their peace and forgive each other. Where does their Wrath go? Nowhere.

Recently @JesusFan asked this same question - If God does not visit His wrath upon Jesus, and we escape the wrath to come....where does that wrath go? What becomes of the wrath?

Here we need to turn to Scripture. The wrath of God is consistently directed against the wicked, against those who do not do His will. (Deuteronomy 1:26-46; Joshua 7:1; Psalm 2:1-6; Romans 1:18; John 3:36). At Judgment the wicked will experience God's wrath (Ecclesiastes 3:17; Matthew 13:49-50).

What happened, then, to the wrath that was at one time against us when we were wicked before we were forgiven?

Again, just to emphasize, thos is a nonsense question as wrath, like sins, is not a material thing. God does not literally store wrath in a box in heaven. Romans 2:5 tells us that the wicked are storing wrath against themselves until judgment. They are not receiving in the present the wrath to come but will be judged "on that day".

Likewise, God does not literally pick up our sins and toss them into the ocean. This is a figurative way of saying God forgives us.


I am not sure how or when Christians began thinking of wrath and sins as material things that can be moved about, packed up in a box, etc. I bring thos up because it has been a fairly consistent question on this forum. God's wrath does not "go" anywhere. It is Hos righteous anger against the wicked which will be "poured out" on the wicked "on that day".

 

[cjab]

Anger moves from the originator to the recipient, but may turn back again (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point). As the exact nuance of the Hebrew word is contextual to its usage, there is no necessity to posit where it goes to. Anger just disappears when it turns away from the recipient.

Num 25:4 "The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.”"

Original Word: שׁוּב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shuwb
Pronunciation: shōōb

1. to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point)
2. (generally) to retreat,
etc.

 

[JonC]

Anger moves from the originator to the recipient, but may turn back again (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point). As the exact nuance of the Hebrew word is contextual to its usage, there is no necessity to posit where it goes to. Anger just disappears when it turns away from the recipient.

Num 25:4 "The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.”"

Original Word: שׁוּב
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shuwb
Pronunciation: shōōb

1. to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point)
2. (generally) to retreat,
etc.

I agree. And we see this in our own anger.

I have been angry at a rude car honking at me, until I realized they knew me and were being friendly. My anger turned away. I have been angry at somebody who wronged me, but I forgave them.

In Scripture God's anger is based on the condition of the people. His anger is against the wicked. His anger (or wrath) does not change, but the people can change so that they are no longer object's of God's wrath.

 

[Charlie24]

I agree. And we see this in our own anger.

I have been angry at a rude car honking at me, until I realized they knew me and were being friendly. My anger turned away. I have been angry at somebody who wronged me, but I forgave them.

In Scripture God's anger is based on the condition of the people. His anger is against the wicked. His anger (or wrath) does not change, but the people can change so that they are no longer object's of God's wrath.

I agree, JonC, God's anger/wrath is continuous on all the wicked in this world.

Paul told us in Eph. 4 to be angry and sin not, don't let the sun go down on your wrath.

It's a natural emotion for man to become angry, and that's not a sin, unlike God whose wrath is continuous, we are to let go of our wrath or it becomes sin.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree, JonC, God's anger/wrath is continuous on all the wicked in this world.

Paul told us in Eph. 4 to be angry and sin not, don't let the sun go down on your wrath.

It's a natural emotion for man to become angry, and that's not a sin, unlike God whose wrath is continuous, we are to let go of our wrath or it becomes sin.

But the wrath of God must be propiated, must have someone take it in order to have it able to have God the Father able to freely forgive, as being Holy, cannot just pat sinners on the head and tell them "good boys, I now forgive you"

 

[Charlie24]

But the wrath of God must be propiated, must have someone take it in order to have it able to have God the Father able to freely forgive, as being Holy, cannot just pat sinners on the head and tell them "good boys, I now forgive you"

God's wrath abides on the wicked, His wrath is satisfied on them at the judgment.

Judgment is the righteousness of God fulfilled on those who refuse His Son, for whatever reason.

 

[JonC]

But the wrath of God must be propiated, must have someone take it in order to have it able to have God the Father able to freely forgive, as being Holy, cannot just pat sinners on the head and tell them "good boys, I now forgive you"

You are confusing Jesus AS the propitiation for the sins of the World (Jesus as the means by which we "escaoe the wrath to come") with appeasing God's wrath.

The first is biblical but the latter is a pagan concept that has crept into Christian thought. Man does not control or manipulate God. His wrath is against wickedness. This will never change.

 

[cjab]

I agree, JonC, God's anger/wrath is continuous on all the wicked in this world.

The Greek draws pertinent distinctions here, between settled anger, or a state of indignation, that is the property of the subject when an object is in view (ὀργή - noun, from ὀρέγομαι - verb [= middle/passive of ὀρέγω - stretch/reach out, yearn]), and anger that is expressed and directed in some form (ὀργίζω), which may be righteous where from God (from spiritual/moral motives), or sinful, if done to satisfy the flesh.

So I would agree with your statement in the first sense, (God has permanent indignation towards all the wicked), but not in the second sense, as "in wrath remember mercy" Hab 3:2.

Also Isa 54:8, Isa 60:10 (".... in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee").

Mat 24:22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

 

[Charlie24]

The Greek draws pertinent distinctions here, between settled anger, or a state of indignation, that is the property of the subject when an object is in view (ὀργή - noun, from ὀρέγομαι - verb [= middle/passive of ὀρέγω - stretch/reach out, yearn]), and anger that is expressed and directed in some form (ὀργίζω), which may be righteous where from God (from spiritual/moral motives), or sinful, if done to satisfy the flesh.

So I would agree with your statement in the first sense, (God has permanent indignation towards all the wicked), but not in the second sense, as "in wrath remember mercy" Hab 3:2.

Also Isa 54:8, Isa 60:10 (".... in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee").

Mat 24:22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Yes, I agree.

When I made the statement that God's wrath is continuous on the wicked, I had John 3:36 in mind.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

 

[JesusFan]

God's wrath abides on the wicked, His wrath is satisfied on them at the judgment.

Judgment is the righteousness of God fulfilled on those who refuse His Son, for whatever reason.

Where did his deserved wrath towards us who got saved go though, as God to be Holy still had to judge us for those sins?

 

[JesusFan]

You are confusing Jesus AS the propitiation for the sins of the World (Jesus as the means by which we "escaoe the wrath to come") with appeasing God's wrath.

The first is biblical but the latter is a pagan concept that has crept into Christian thought. Man does not control or manipulate God. His wrath is against wickedness. This will never change.

The propiation of the wrath of God is in the scriptures, its those who rebel against such a concept of God actually having His divine wrath placed upon the sin bearing lamb of God who call it a pagan concept

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I agree.

When I made the statement that God's wrath is continuous on the wicked, I had John 3:36 in mind.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

And when we got saved, taht wrath that no longer remained on us, where did it rest upon now then?

 

[JonC]

The propiation of the wrath of God is in the scriptures, its those who rebel against such a concept of God actually having His divine wrath placed upon the sin bearing lamb of God who call it a pagan concept

In the Bible God's wrath is against the wicked. This does not change. God will exercise judgment on the wicked.

The part of your statement that is pagan is the belief that the wicked can do anything to appease God so that His wrath is no longer on the wicked.

There are aspects of your posts which are pagan concepts. But there are also parts of your posts that simply do not make sence (like God having to put His wrath somewhere as if wrath were a block of cheese).

 

[Zaatar71]

You are confusing Jesus AS the propitiation for the sins of the World (Jesus as the means by which we "escaoe the wrath to come") with appeasing God's wrath.

The first is biblical but the latter is a pagan concept that has crept into Christian thought. Man does not control or manipulate God. His wrath is against wickedness. This will never change.

Charlie C said[
God's wrath abides on the wicked, His wrath is satisfied on them at the judgment.

Judgment is the righteousness of God fulfilled on those who refuse His Son, for whatever reason].

No...God's love is not a pagan concept. Jesus as propitiation turns away the wrath of God from the elect as He put it Jesus as the Divine substitute to take the wrath the belonged to each and every one of the elect. Charlie acknowledges God's wrath on the unsaved, but he did not answer Jesus fans question. I might have to start another thread as to not derail this one.

 

[Charlie24]

Where did his deserved wrath towards us who got saved go though, as God to be Holy still had to judge us for those sins?

It went to Christ, He is the bearer of sin for all mankind, if they will accept Him.

Isaiah 53:6

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

As John has said, He is the satisfaction for not only our sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

God's wrath for sin was satisfied in Christ. Those who accept Him will receive forgiveness, but those who reject Him will not, they will bear God's wrath for rejecting Christ.

This is the condition that God has placed on mankind, we must make a choice to accept or reject God's Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

And when we got saved, taht wrath that no longer remained on us, where did it rest upon now then?

Obviously the wrath goes with the sin, and who is the sin bearer of mankind?

 

[Zaatar71]

Obviously the wrath goes with the sin, and who is the sin bearer of mankind?

Some of the wrath goes on the unsaved eternally in the second death ,justly for their sins...It had no propitiation.

The wrath that had been on the elect scattered throughout the world, was placed fully upon Jesus on the cross, in PSA.

 

[JonC]

Some of the wrath goes on the unsaved eternally in the second death ,justly for their sins...It had no propitiation.

The wrath that had been on the elect scattered throughout the world, was placed fully upon Jesus on the cross, in PSA.

That is a flaw in the philosophy Calvin used. God never needed to empty His wrath. Men needed ti become something other than wicked. And obviously, divine wrath could never be placed on Christ and any person be saved.

 

[Charlie24]

Some of the wrath goes on the unsaved eternally in the second death ,justly for their sins...It had no propitiation.

The wrath that had been on the elect scattered throughout the world, was placed fully upon Jesus on the cross, in PSA.

Yes, through the perfect sacrifice for sin the forgiveness is there waiting for all men who will believe.

Christ bore their sins but there is a condition that must be met for the forgiveness of sins.

Those who reject that sacrifice in Christ still carry the wrath of God, they have no forgiveness.

The wrath is not so much for their sin as it is for their rejection of the ONE who died for their sins.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, through the perfect sacrifice for sin the forgiveness is there waiting for all men who will believe.

Christ bore their sins but there is a condition that must be met for the forgiveness of sins.

Those who reject that sacrifice in Christ still carry the wrath of God, they have no forgiveness.

The wrath is not so much for their sin as it is for their rejection of the ONE who died for their sins.

"If you believe I am not He, you shall die in your sins."

You see, not the sin but the rejection is the source of God's wrath.