Your wish is my command!
The Scripture to back it up - I think its the verse right after the one about the Trinity!
SO what is your thoughts about Dispensation
(and please, lets keep this civil!)
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Dispensationalism,
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
The Scripture to back it up - I think its the verse right after the one about the Trinity!
SO what is your thoughts about Dispensation
(and please, lets keep this civil!)
Thread coming as soon as I can get to it.
Can we start by putting to rest the idea that Darby started it and it didn’t exist before that?
The first congregation was established in Plymouth, Devon, in 1831.
Websters 1828 has this definition
4. That which is dispensed or bestowed; a system of principles and rites enjoined; as the Mosaic dispensation; the gospel dispensation; including, the former the Levitical law and rites; the latter the scheme of redemption by Christ.
If Darby was such a great teacher that he had converted Webster three years before his first congregation, Darby should have been writing books about church growth and he could have been more popular than Ziglar.
He would have been making converts in a foreign country that had less than two decades before been at war with. This he would have done by the age of 28. I think history does not bear this out.
The first congregation was established in Plymouth, Devon, in 1831.
Websters 1828 has this definition
4. That which is dispensed or bestowed; a system of principles and rites enjoined; as the Mosaic dispensation; the gospel dispensation; including, the former the Levitical law and rites; the latter the scheme of redemption by Christ.
If Darby was such a great teacher that he had converted Webster three years before his first congregation, Darby should have been writing books about church growth and he could have been more popular than Ziglar.
He would have been making converts in a foreign country that had less than two decades before been at war with. This he would have done by the age of 28. I think history does not bear this out.
Charlie - you dont need to - this thread is the one!
Ok, when I get to it I'll post it here.
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
I’ve been looking and I don’t see the Trinity in the previous verse.
5 point Gillinist
Active Member
If that sort of argument was valid, then all the guys who use that argument should be historic premillenial by their own reasoning.
Awww, @Salty, I just noticed you placed Dispensationalism in "Other Christian Denominations." I guess that's the picture of the hill to be climbed. But that's ok, we'll clime that hill anyway.
Dispensationalism is a Biblical doctrine that covers the entire Scripture from Gen. to Rev. I can't even come close to explaining all of it short a book. I think the area of contention here on BB can be covered in focusing on the difference and distinctions between Israel and the Church.
Covenant Theology is the view of how God has dealt with man through primarily the covenants of Redemption, Works, and Grace, while Dispensationalism is the view of how God dealt with man through the dispensations of time.
The main difference focuses on the literal translation of Scripture taught in Dispensationalism. It teaches that the Scripture should be interpreted literally until it becomes obvious it's not. I sometimes us the simple example of Christ saying "you are the salt of the earth." it should be obvious that man is not literally salt and should not be taken literally. We will discuss this later when we reach the differences of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism found in Scripture.
First we must understand the foundation of Dispensationalism. There are 7 original dispensations, some cut it down to 3-4 and some go to great detail with 12-14, it really doesn't matter, it's according to the depth of detail one takes it. For a better understanding I stick to 4, it serves the same purpose and I think easier to understand. Here are the original 7.
1. Innocence
2. Conscience
3. Human Government
4. Promise
5. Law
6. Grace
7. Millennial Kingdom
I don't have the space to explain these individually, you can easily go online and see them explained. My concern is how they work and create the foundation of Dispensationalism, and that is what I will explain.
During the dispensation of innocence with Adam and Eve, they didn't know good nor evil, they had no sin, and didn't need a Saviour. God dealt with them much differently than with those under Law. He deals much differently with us in this dispensation of Grace, the Church Age.
With each dispensation in time the knowledge of God and His Christ are progressing. God is dealing with man according to the knowledge man had during the dispensation in which he lived. So will man be judged according to the knowledge he had in his life.
Paul said, where there is no Law, sin is not imputed. Those who lived before the Law did not have their sin imputed to them as later after the Law came. But that in no way exonerates them from the responsibility of sin. Paul said that man has no excuse, and the Gentiles that had no Law naturally do the things written in Law, if nothing else they had a God given conscience that gave them some light as to right and wrong.
So from this hopefully we can see the progression of knowledge given to man through the dispensations of time, leading up to the this dispensation of Grace where we have the New Testament, having more knowledge of God and His Christ than any dispensation of time before us.
But this dispensation of Grace we now live in will come to an end as all the others have. Man will be taken to even a more advanced knowledge of God and His Christ on this earth. The Kingdom Age is before us, and will begin at the Second Coming of Christ, sorry Preterists.
Entering into the Kingdome Age is where Dispensationalism takes a huge turn from Covenant Theology. This is the time in Scripture where the literal interpretation is critical to understanding future events.
Where Covenant Theology follows the covenants of God into this new dispensation in view of the Church, Dispensationalism follows the literal dispensation of the Kingdom of Christ on this earth in view of Israel.
Concerning Dispensationalism, the question should be, is it Biblical? That will be the subject of part 2.
Dispensationalism Part 2
Sorry this is taking so long, I've been remodeling inside the house for the past 6 weeks doing all the work myself, got my hands full.
At this point let me state that the entire theme of the Holy Bible from beginning to end is Jesus Christ crucified for the sins of the world. That's it! Salvation begins in the Garden of Eden and takes us to a perfect and righteous condition in presence of God Himself for all eternity.
Dispensationalism follows that theme as God reveals Himself through these dispensations in time to mankind. Dispensationalism shows us who we are, where we're at, and where we are going according to the Word of God.
Interpretation is the key element here and we all have a different view, it's not my purpose to convince you of Dispensationalism, my purpose is for you to have a better understanding of it.
Now that we have a basic idea of how God has dealt differently with man throughout history by dividing time into dispensations, we can see that God is providing a progressive knowledge of Himself and His Christ. We now turn to Israel, God's chosen people, the nation that God created through the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for a specific purpose in this world. What is that purpose?
This cannot be just glimpsed at, it's long and drawn out and requires attention to detail to understand, so I'm taking my time, I want you to see this purpose of Israel in the Word of God.
Isaiah 49:3-8
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
There are many passages of Scripture throughout the Old Testament that repeat this passage concerning Israel and the coming Christ. I can't cover them all in this format, but if you are interested, I can provide many if you ask me to provide them.
The "Servant" in this passage from Isaiah is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is addressed as "Israel" and in Him (Jesus Christ) the Father will be glorified." Jesus Christ is the "True Israel." Christ will gather together the nation of Israel, "the Tribes of Jacob" ethnic Israel, and through them Christ will be "My (the Father's) salvation to the ends of the earth."
We all know that when Israel's Messiah came, they failed in their calling by God, they failed miserably to the point of killing the Son of God. Then God turned to the Church to take the Gospel to the world. Is God finished with Israel and given up on His original calling of Israel? Paul answers this question in detail.
Rom. 11:1-5
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Paul further discusses the present and future fate of the nation of Israel in vs. 25-32.
25-32
"25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded then all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
God has preserved Israel and blinded them in their unbelief, setting them on the back shelf during the times of the Gentiles. At this present time God is saving the Gentile world, with Israel still in darkness.
Nearly 100% of the body of Christ today is Gentile, with less than 1% being true Jews. This Age of Grace is the calling of the Gentiles throughout the world to salvation. While Israel is being preserved and blinded.
But notice Paul says that "all Israel will be saved" and there can be no doubt he is speaking of ethnic Israel. Paul also says of Israel, "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." God is saying His original calling of Israel is still in effect, He has not changed His mind or cancelled that calling of Israel.
It's my personal opinion that Dispensationalism is so misunderstood in the time frame of what takes place with Israel. The distinctions between Israel and the Gentile Church take place in the 1000 year reign of Christ, not for all of eternity. What they failed to do 2000 years ago in accepting Christ and taking His salvation "to the ends of the earth." will be fulfilled by Israel during those 1000 years when Christ rules this world on earth. They will fulfill their original calling at that time.
So, hopefully you can now begin to see how God is dealing separately with Israel and with the Gentiles at this present dispensation of Grace. In Part 3 we will take a look at the those distinctions given to Israel alone.
Let me add to Part 2 "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," referring to the end of this dispensation of Grace, the Church Age. It triggers the Second Coming of Christ, with Israel having already been prepared for their destiny, "all Israel shall be saved."
God is working separately with the Gentiles and Israel. this will be further discussed as we move on.
You used the term "true Israel". What do you mean by that term? was israel false in some way?
also what do you mean that God is dealing differently with gentiles? thanks in advance
I mean that Jesus Christ is the head of God's plan of salvation.
He (Christ) fulfilled the calling of Israel in His own flesh.
In Isaiah 49, God is speaking to Isaiah of Israel, but through the lens of Christ fulfilling their calling as His Servant.
Israel through their calling will in the future bring glory to God the Father through Christ.
But Christ is the source of the calling and the fulfillment through Israel's calling.
God originally chose and called Israel, not the Church to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth.
The Church is God's second choice, when Israel failed in their calling.
But as I have shown you in part 2, God is not finished with Israel, He has not changed His mind on Israel fulfilling their calling in the future.
Christ came through Israel, God gave them the Law and has chosen them above all the nations of the earth.
Christ is the "True Israel" as He is also the New Covenant given to Israel and also offered to the Gentiles.
Isa. 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
It looks like gentiles are included right here, are they part of this salvation?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
rom 11 is a great place to start to prove this fact
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
they always were
Even in the beginning, he told Abraham, in you (literally in your seed or Christ) shall all the nations or families of the earth be blessed.
yes, that is what I thought...it was always about all nations coming to Jesus.
Gal.3:
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
No it's not, but here is the wonderful Grace of our Christ,
He came only for the lost sheep of Israel, but He in His great mercy never turned down the faith of a Gentile.
We see it over and over again in the Gospels, Christ healing and saving the Gentiles, though He came only for the lost sheep of Israel.
If you noticed in Acts, the Jews with peter were "astonished" they shocked when they see the Gentiles being saving under Peter's preaching.
This is the mystery Paul spoke of as being hidden from man in the past, that God would also save those of the Gentiles.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Salvation has always been by grace through faith..
In any dispensation this is true.
thats where most people misunderstand the dispensational mindset. they believe we thought people were saved different ways. This is not true
Is it possible to add a poll to this thread at this point.
I think it would be helpful for the discussion to know how many people believe that salvation is different in different dispensations.
Hebrews should teach anyone that all, no matter when they lived, have salvation by faith.
So now that everyone knows how they should answer the question, I think it would clear up what kind of discussion this is.
I think it would be helpful for the discussion to know how many people believe that salvation is different in different dispensations.
Hebrews should teach anyone that all, no matter when they lived, have salvation by faith.
So now that everyone knows how they should answer the question, I think it would clear up what kind of discussion this is.