Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Im not spending time going through that for you. You wont believe a word I say, I dont see why you even ask me to explain scripture to you, you already said I dont know what Im talking about.
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Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
It should be obvious, BF, why do you even question it.
God is speaking of the righteousness needed to enter into His Kingdom.
It's a spiritual death, why, why do you carry on this way?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
okay
Several fallacies here and in your previous post. It is a given that the "teachers of the law" had departed from the faith, in that they had rejected Moses, in order to pursue a substitute religion never taught by Moses, which is that justification came by law observance, independently of faith.
Their apostasy and failure to grasp the necessity for faith (different sides of the same coin) doesn't mean that they hadn't received the grace of God; for as Rom 9:4-5 points out, they had; but they had consistently rejected and opposed it, as Stephen the Martyr points out in Acts 7:51.
Matt 11:25 is not well translated by the KJV. "wise (σοφός) and prudent (συνετός)" is likely better translated as "humanly-educated and clever (in the sense of crafty)" (independently of divine revelation), whilst the contrast νήπιος, translated as "little children" is better translated as "simple minded" and inferred as capable of receiving the revelation.
Secondly, the fallacy that the non-elect receive "no grace at all" is not made out for as Paul points out in Rom 1, even from birth all people are witnesses to the nature and glory of God, such that "men have no excuse for sin". A Calvinist error is to pretend that the general entails the universal in respect of the sins of apostasy from Moses. Not all Gentiles had departed from the basic moral law, as Cornelius et al. demonstrates, and Rom 2 also.
Now look at Rom 9:4 "Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises...." How can you possibly say that the Jews didn't receive saving grace from God?
Thirdly, your idea that the saved elect receive "special grace" entails a scarcely veiled insistence that they receive favoritism from God, but this is debunked by Rom 2:11.
All Matt 11:25-27 is saying is that no man can come to the Father by human-wisdom and craftiness. The Jews had cut themselves off from the saving grace of Christ by becoming apostates from Moses (by rejecting the "weightier matters" of the law). Hence the mercy of God that had gone first to the Jews, went also to the Gentiles, but as Paul warns the Gentiles in Rom 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."
And so, the Augustinian/Calvinistic fallacy that "special grace via the gospel" = (arbitrary) "favoritism" is IMO a reversion back to the Jewish error. God doesn't show favoritism, as Paul says, and grace is (ultimately) resistable by all, especially by anyone relapsing back into human wisdom, which is where the danger lies for votaries of Calvin & of favoritism & of double-predestination. My thesis is that predestination & election is a corollary of the gospel of grace, and emphasizes God's purposes in salvation. The concept of double-predestination doesn't arise, and is not taught in scripture.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You don't get it
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"II. ELECTION DEFINED."
"God, of His Own Purpose, has from Eternity Determined to save a definite number of mankind, as individuals, not for, or because of, any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to Him of them; but of His Own Good Pleasure" (J. P. Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 347).
"Election is that Eternal Act of God, by which in His Sovereign Pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, He Chooses certain ones out of the number of sinful men to be the Recipients of the Special Grace of His Spirit and to be Made Voluntary Partakers of Christ's salvation" (A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p. 427).
"III. ELECTION IS ETERNAL."
"By this we mean that Election is without actual Origin.
It always has been, just as God Always Has Been.
"1. PROOFS STATED."
"(1) The Immutability of God
"By this we mean that the Nature, Attributes, and Will of God are exempt from all change . . . All change must be to better or worse. But God is Absolute Perfection, and no change to better is possible. Change to worse would be equally inconsistent with Perfection" (Strong, Systematic Theology). Because God has Ever Possessed All Knowledge and All Power there can be no occasion of change in Him.
"For scriptural proof and further discussion of Gods Immutability
see chapter on "The Nature and Attributes of God."
"The Immutability of God teaches us that whatever God Wills at Any Time, He Always has Willed. "There can be no more 'a new thought', 'a new intent', or 'a new purpose' in God, than there can be 'a new' God" (Ness). Consequently, when God Saves a man, He Must Always have Intended and Purposed to Save him. That Purpose and Intent to Save him involves an Election of him to Salvation. Hence Election is Eternal. To affirm otherwise is to deny the Immutability of God.
"(2) The Foreknowledge of God."
"Rom. 8:29 asserts that God Foreknew those whom He Saves. This Foreknowledge involved a Purpose to Save these. And this Purpose to Save them involved Election. Did this Foreknowledge have a beginning? If so, then there was a time when God was not Omniscient and, hence, not 'Perfect' and 'Infinite'. Without Perfection and Infinity there can be no God. Therefore, the Foreknowledge of God is Eternal, and, consequently, Election is Eternal; because Election is involved in Foreknowledge, as pointed out above.
"Thus, we see how deleterious the teaching is that Election takes place in time. Any denier of the Eternity of Election is logically an atheist. He really has no God; for having logically denied the Immutability, Perfection, and Infinity of God, he has theoretically robbed Him of His Divinity. Yet those who teach the Eternity of Election are accused of raising new tests of fellowship.
"(3) Plain Scripture Statements
"We appeal here to the two following passages:
"Even as He Chose us in Him before the Foundation of the World" (Eph. 1:4).
"God Chose you from the Beginning" (2 Thess. 2:13).
"That which took place before the Foundation of the World, took place before the Beginning of Time: for in the Beginning of Time the World was Created (Gen. 1:1).
"Even as He Chose us in Him before the Foundation of the World" (Eph. 1:4) puts Election in Eternity.
"God Chose you from the Beginning" (2 Thess. 2:13) means that ever since the Beginning our Election has been a Completed Act. Thus, Election took place before the Beginning, and, since in Eternity there is no before or after, there never was a Time when Election had not taken place. This is the meaning of Eternal.
"2. OBJECTIONS ANSWERED;
"To the Eternity of Election it is objected by some-
"(1) That Election takes place when we are Saved because we are 'elected "in" Christ'.
"This is stated in Eph. 1:4, which we have just quoted. But note that this same passage makes Election Eternal. Why will men thus array a single passage of Scripture against itself?
"The statement that we were Elected "in" Christ means no more than that Christ was the Ground of our Election (Election being on the basis of His Saving Work), and that we were Foreknown as being in Christ in the Purpose of God. The language here is the language of Him Who, in His Purpose, "Calleth things that are not, as though they were" (Rom. 4:17).
"We have another example of this in Rom. 8:29,30, where the Calling, Justification, and Glorification of all the Elect are put in the past tense. We were not actually and experientially in Christ in Eternity, nor were we actually and experientially Called, Justified, and Glorified in Eternity; but we were in the Purpose of God, and this is the meaning of the passage just cited.
(2) That we are Elected when we are Saved on the Ground that the Scripture never applies the term "Elect" to any except the Saved.
"It is true that the term "elect," in some places in the Scripture, has exclusive reference to saved persons. Such a use of the term may be seen in Matt. 22:24; Luke 18:7; Rom. 8:23; 1 Peter 1:2. These passages refer only to those in whom Election has been applied and made experiential. But it is not to these only that the term "elect" and its equivalents are applied.
"In Eph. 1:4 and 2 Thess. 2:13, as we have seen, the Elect are said to have been such from Eternity. Then the term "sheep" is equivalent to the term "Elect," and in John 10:16 we have Christ's application of the term "sheep" to the lost Gentiles that were yet to be saved. This passage reads:
"Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (the Jewish nation): them also I must bring, and they shall hear My Voice; and there shall be one flock, One Shepherd."
"But, to the further discomfiture of Arminians, we find that 2 Tim. 1:10 applies the term "Elect" in its possessive form to those who were not yet saved. The passage reads.
"I endure all things for the Elect's sake, that they also may Obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory."
"(3) That we are elected when we are saved on the ground that the Scripture puts calling before election.
"It is a fact that sometimes the Scripture, in referring to both the Calling and Election of believers, or in alluding to the Called and Elected, mentions the former first. See Matt. 22:14; 2 Pet. 1:10; Rev. 17:14. The "Called" of Matt. 22:14 (the Greek word being an adjective used substantively) are those to whom only the general, external, and, for the most part, ineffectual call, through the preaching of the Gospel, is sounded. This class is composed of many. But of these only a few, comparatively speaking, belong to the Chosen, Elect, as evidenced by the fact that only the few believe the Gospel. "The other two passages cited mention Calling and Election in the order in which they are realized in the experience. One knows his Election only by the Calling (Quickening) that he has received of the Holy Spirit.
"That the passages given above do not fix the chronological or even the logical, order of Calling and Election is evident from the proofs that have been given of the Eternity of Election, and from Rom. 8:29,30, where the order is manifestly the true logical order. There Foreknowledge and Predestination, which involve Election, are placed before Calling. Then Rom. 8:28 asserts that we are Called (particularly, internally, and effectually) "according to His (God's) Purpose." And this Purpose involves Election. Thus Election must precede Calling, just as the Purpose to Call must precede the actual Call since the Calling is according to the Divine Purpose.
"Those who urge this objection against the Eternity of Election need to note that the Scripture does not always name things in either their logical or chronological order. For instance, 2 Tim. 1:9 puts salvation before Calling.
"(4) That Election takes place when we are saved on the ground that we are Elected through Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth.
"This objection is based on the King James translation of 2 Thess. 2:13 and 1 Pet. 1:2. This first passage says, in the King James version, that we were Elected "to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."
"The second passage says, according to the same version, that we are "Elect . . . through Sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ." The Greek preposition translated "through" by the King James translators is "en." And it is rather disconcerting to Arminians to note that the Revised Version translates this preposition "in" instead of "through."
"But it is ruinous to them to note that N. M. Williams says of this preposition: "It expresses a state, not an act; not 'through,' but 'in.' The Greek preposition seldom expresses instrumentality" (An American [Baptist] Commentary on the New Testament).
"The Greek preposition alludes to the state the people addressed were in at the time they were addressed, and does not signify the means by which they became the Elect of God."
May be I "get" Calvinist double-predestination; I don't agree with it, because it has come to denote an alternative gospel of God's arbitrary choosing; but in which men actually "elect" themselves to salvation by deluding themselves that they possess a superior gnosis, just as the pharisees did on that very basis.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its nothing arbitrary about it, God purposed to do what He did in all wisdom and prudence, to predestine some to glory with His Son and predestine some, the rest to wrath and destruction with the devil and his angels
Excellent point, cjab.
Maybe at The flood of Noah's day? maybe the Sodomites? Maybe Korah's rebellion?
I am sorry that you are not quite able to see it, in its fullness SH, you would greatly benefit from it!
I am thankful that God has predestined believers to be conformed to the Image of the Son, aren't you?
God in Love has done this! Why would you feel like a marionette, rather than an adopted Son of God?
Could you clarify, if possible, what it is that makes you say you feel that way?
Is it that you have to rely on God to enable you to persevere? That you are puzzled that we cannot quite do it on our own?
I would be interested in the sequence of your thoughts on this! Thanks in advance.
If we look outside of the verses of Scripture where Paul teaches the doctrine of predestination, I call them the sign posts that carry the regulations of the Word of God.
If we acknowledge these sign posts we can clearly see that the theory of TULIP is contrary to the theme of the sign posts that guide us through God's Word.
You think that maybe these people in certain times in the past were not reached out to by God. Here we go back to the sign posts located throughout the Word of God.
1 Peter 1:2
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," is a sign post that is completely ignored by your theory. Your theory strictly states that God does not choose the Elect through foreknowledge.
God in His foreknowledge has reached out to all men everywhere and for all time. Man was given greater light of this salvation as the dispensations have unfolded over time. But no man has an excuse and no man is completely absent of light, as Paul has shown us.
Titus 2:11-12
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
You will consider that the word "all" used here by Paul is referring to only the Elect of God, when in reality it refers to all of mankind and for all time, but according to the knowledge available at the time and dispensation in which they lived.
This reminds me of Part 3 in Dispensationalism that I'm yet to prepare. I'm going to integrate the above post into Part 3.
But please understand that I naturally put this out of my mind, it requires deep thought and preparation of recalling Scripture for my points.
I've mentioned that I have developed a condition that effects the nerves when enter into this mode of serious explaining, and yes, I'm putting it off. I know what the result will be when I go there, and it's increasing in intensity with time.
But I will get to it when I feel I can handle it. I have to pick that time.
Predestination is a False Doctrine.
Calvinism's false doctrine is that Ephesians 1:4 teaches individuals (foreseen before they were created) were individually chosen for salvation before creation. This is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we once were not a people chosen for his own possession and once had not received mercy. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, when God chosen the Word to be His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He chose corporately those who might be redeemed. This also makes sense since we did not exist as individuals.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do not agree with your view that following pagan philosophy rather than the word of God would be of benefit to me.
Hello Charlie.
I think I can help you quite a bit here, if you are open to it. I will address your "sign post" thing in a bit.
You posted this;
Notice it declares...For Whom He did Foreknow {persons} It does not say; For "what" he did foreknow {events, or things}
God is omniscient so we Know he is aware of all things. This is not that however Look at the text; Rom8:29-30, watch, the Whom / Them
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
It is only used of the people..not things, or events, Uninformed persons go to a dictionary and totally miss the import of the biblical usage.
For more study, look here;The Foreknowledge Of God By Arthur W Pink - Coming In The Clouds
I think I can help you quite a bit here, if you are open to it. I will address your "sign post" thing in a bit.
You posted this;
Charlie, first thing is, it is not going to help you by calling the sound teaching of scripture, and call it a theory. It is not any theory, but rather revealed truth. Secondly, the real sign post is in your post!
The real signpost here is....you have a completely false view of the biblical word foreknowledge as used in scripture. I have never seen any person come to a correct understanding of these truths, who get this definition wrong. In short; In Romans 8:29-30 notice carefully how the bible uses the word..do not go to an English dictionary..
Notice it declares...For Whom He did Foreknow {persons} It does not say; For "what" he did foreknow {events, or things}
God is omniscient so we Know he is aware of all things. This is not that however Look at the text; Rom8:29-30, watch, the Whom / Them
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
It is only used of the people..not things, or events, Uninformed persons go to a dictionary and totally miss the import of the biblical usage.
For more study, look here;The Foreknowledge Of God By Arthur W Pink - Coming In The Clouds
Not so, at all! God has a knowledge of all men ever born, before they were even formed in the womb. God has not reached out to all men, savingly. Creation, and conscience let men know there is a God, and they are responsible before Him. That does not explain the fullness of the gospel at all. It if only those who are "Foreknown by God in this special relationship ,that get the full revelation of God's grace and mercy!
No, not true. Many have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus at all. They have lived and died apart from any saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
Yes, all men everywhere are fully responsible to out thrice Holy God. They are responsible, and yet, without excuse. That is why Missionaries go out, and we try and reach everyone we can!
What does it mean "Elect ACCORDING to the foreknowledge of God the Father?"
Reformed Theology believes in an unconditional election.
The election cannot be ACCORDING to His foreknowledge, that would be a conditional election.
Reformed Theology is an election according to His Sovereignty.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
His forelove