Hybrid Soteriology

[Paleouss]

Actually I think you are attempting to claim fallen people cannot actually seek God or trust in Christ without supernatural enablement. But of course you did not say that. Scripture says many will seek the narrow door that leads to life but will not find it. No amount of legerdemain will nullify the biblical teaching that many lost people seek God.

Greetings Van. I'm back from my wedding anniversary weekend. Made some good memories. I hope your weekend was a blessed one.

Actually I think you are attempting to claim fallen people cannot actually seek God or trust in Christ without supernatural enablement.

To be more precise, at least in what I think the Bible teaches, I do think that God has made the first move through His Cosmic Triumph of the Powers of Darkness and brought some light to all mankind (one of the multiple intentions of the cross).

One of the multiple intentions of the cross was that Jesus Christ was sent to be the "Savior of the world" (1John 4:14), a "Savior of all men" (1Tim 4:10) from the powers of sin and death that holds mankind as slaves within the kingdom of darkness. Upon His death and resurrection, Christ draws all people to Himself (John 12:32) (I emphasize the word "draws" here). And all people means all people without distinction or limit (the Calvinist are incorrect regarding John 12:32 due to the misunderstanding of multiple intentions).

From what I know of your theology, we are not in disagreement that one of the intentions of the cross was for all peoples. Where we disagree the most is in the working of the Spirit in the world. You, as I understand it, are more like a Diest (please correct me if I am wrong. I don't want to put labels on you that are not correct). I on the other hand am more, at least on this issue, like a prevenient grace or enabling grace type (I understand that neither you nor the Calvinist will accept my position)

Scripture says many will seek the narrow door that leads to life but will not find it.

I agree. Many may seek but not find. For those many will see the light that has been shown into this world that gives light to every man (John 1:9, John 3:19, John 8:12, John 9:5, John 12:46). Again, where I think you and I disagree is that I contend that the scripture attests to the fact that Christ has brought light to the world, first, and that light is accompanied by the Spirit (in some way). All see some amount of this light...some hide for they love sin and do not want their sin exposed, and some even seek the light but then fall away (sower parable). This is not a testament to a salvation that has failed but a demonstration of a lack of faith and belief (which in the end is submission) to a grace that God has afforded to all men.


Keep seeking God as if He was hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Van]

Greetings Van. I'm back from my wedding anniversary weekend. Made some good memories. I hope your weekend was a blessed one.

To be more precise, at least in what I think the Bible teaches, I do think that God has made the first move through His Cosmic Triumph of the Powers of Darkness and brought some light to all mankind (one of the multiple intentions of the cross).

One of the multiple intentions of the cross was that Jesus Christ was sent to be the "Savior of the world" (1John 4:14), a "Savior of all men" (1Tim 4:10) from the powers of sin and death that holds mankind as slaves within the kingdom of darkness. Upon His death and resurrection, Christ draws all people to Himself (John 12:32) (I emphasize the word "draws" here). And all people means all people without distinction or limit (the Calvinist are incorrect regarding John 12:32 due to the misunderstanding of multiple intentions).

From what I know of your theology, we are not in disagreement that one of the intentions of the cross was for all peoples. Where we disagree the most is in the working of the Spirit in the world. You, as I understand it, are more like a Diest (please correct me if I am wrong. I don't want to put labels on you that are not correct). I on the other hand am more, at least on this issue, like a prevenient grace or enabling grace type (I understand that neither you nor the Calvinist will accept my position)

I agree. Many may seek but not find. For those many will see the light that has been shown into this world that gives light to every man (John 1:9, John 3:19, John 8:12, John 9:5, John 12:46). Again, where I think you and I disagree is that I contend that the scripture attests to the fact that Christ has brought light to the world, first, and that light is accompanied by the Spirit (in some way). All see some amount of this light...some hide for they love sin and do not want their sin exposed, and some even seek the light but then fall away (sower parable). This is not a testament to a salvation that has failed but a demonstration of a lack of faith and belief (which in the end is submission) to a grace that God has afforded to all men.


Keep seeking God as if He was hidden treasure (Prov 2)

I see a lot of verbiage, but apparently of the double talk variety. The issue is not the "light" brought by God to humanity, the issue is whether or not lost humanity is able to receive it and respond such that God saves them without being enabled by supernatural alteration. I say the lost are able to respond to "spiritual milk" the fundamentals of the gospel.

All people are NOT drawn "upon Christ's "death and resurrection" People are "drawn" (attracted) when and if they "behold" (become aware) that Christ suffered crucifixion in order to provide the means of reconciliation to all people.

Yes, Christ died as a ransom for all.

You might believe I do not believe God intervenes and alters outcomes, but you have no basis for that fiction. Every salvation is an intervention altering the outcome. Prevenient grace is a fiction, as some of the lost, those fitting the categories of Soils #2, #3, and #4, are able to seek God and believe in Christ. There are absolutely no verses of scripture that teach all the lost are unable to seek God. Therefore "Prevenient grace" is a superfluous fiction.

Hopefully, we agree, once saved, always saved.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings again and thank you for your reply.

I see a lot of verbiage, but apparently of the double talk variety.

Ahh, salt right out of the gate. Glad to be back. Starting from the end of your post and then moving forward.

Hopefully, we agree, once saved, always saved.

To this, it would seem we agree.

You might believe I do not believe God intervenes and alters outcomes, but you have no basis for that fiction.

Thank you for the clarification. You are here asserting that you are a not a Diest. Got it.

Every salvation is an intervention altering the outcome.

The evidence you give to show you are not a Diest would seem to be salvation. Your holding to the 'intervention' of salvation does exclude you from the strict definition of the term Diest. My apologies.

Prevenient grace is a fiction, as some of the lost, those fitting the categories of Soils #2, #3, and #4, are able to seek God and believe in Christ.

As I said in the other post, I understand you would not accept the concept of an enabling grace. I will point out that your assertion that mankind can 'seek' God needn't and does not logically necessitate that my assertion is false.

those fitting the categories of Soils #2, #3, and #4, are able to seek God and believe in Christ

We agree that Soils #2, #3, and #4 seek God. But you left out some important parts, imo. First, the seed was sown by the sower.

Second, we need to establish that the “Sower” is reasonably considered a vessel of God. The vessel isn’t doing his own work but the work of his Master. Further, “it is God who works” (Phil 2:13) in the vessel (Heb 13:21, Phil 2:13) so that His word is shown through the work of the man. As Zechariah 7:12 teaches, the “Lord of hosts” sends His “law and the words” by “His Spirit” through the vessels. In other words, it is the Spirit that accompanies the gospel words through the evangelist, which is the vessel of God’s work, to the listener. For what does the verse say, God sends his word by “His Spirit” (Zech 7:12). Likewise, it is the Spirit that is ever present and accompanying the utterances of the gospel words, called the “seed” that is being sown, through the sower. This presence of the Spirit in this gospel message of life, or sowing of the seed, is what makes “the word of God… living and powerful” (Heb 4:12) and of “spirit, and are life” (John 6:63).

Germination, which is what is shown in Soils #2, #3, and #4, serves as a powerful symbol of the beginnings of the informative and transformative power of God’s word. To me the point of the sowers parable isn't that man can seek God (although I accept your assertion that it shows this). The sowers parable's significant point is that there was germination, i.e., evidences of some life within (if only to be brief and fleeting as they fall away).

The words that contain life, which are the seeds, are literally “living and powerful” (Heb 4:12) because the words are accompanied by “His Spirit” (Zech 7:12) that are sown in the hearts of men (the soil). And the only explanation for benign concrete words being expressed as being of spirit and life is that the ever present Spirit is the ultimate source behind the sowing of the words, symbolized as seeds, to the heart (symbolized as soil).

In other words, it may be me as God’s servant who utters benign lifeless words, but it is the Spirit who works through me accompanying and sowing those words as “living and powerful” (Heb 4:12) to every heart. For what does Scripture say, the Spirit not only “upholds all things” (Heb 1:3), but is active and present in every moment in time (Psa 139:7). The Spirit is constantly “searching all things” (1Cor 2:10) especially the hearts of all men (Rom 8:27), judging the thoughts and attitudes of the hearts of all men (Heb 4:12). Further, this activity in conjunction with the experiential moment that the Spirit is upholding, exposes motives (1Cor 4:5). Thus, God “is actually not far from each one of us” (Acts 17:27, Jer 23:23).

The Spirit is every present and ever working in this world. In every moment of time.

Yes, Christ died as a ransom for all.

As a multiple intentions of the atonement advocate, I agree.

All people are NOT drawn "upon Christ's "death and resurrection" People are "drawn" (attracted) when and if they "behold" (become aware) that Christ suffered crucifixion in order to provide the means of reconciliation to all people.

Can you explain how your statement measures and explains John 12:32? I'm unclear on whether your objection is simply semantics or the taking of what I wrote as some literal version of drawing all people as Christ is ascending.

Can you explain your interpretation of John 12:32 so I can understand where you stand when Christ said, I "will draw all [peoples] to myself".

The issue is not the "light" brought by God to humanity, the issue is whether or not lost humanity is able to receive it and respond such that God saves them without being enabled by supernatural alteration. I say the lost are able to respond to "spiritual milk" the fundamentals of the gospel.

Considering that some would deny that there is a light to all mankind. It would seem that it would apply to this subject. But let me get more focused on what you want to talk about.

1. Does lost humanity receive the "light". I think as you can see through my posting, my answer is yes.
2. Can lost humanity respond to the light... of course. Even those in the body were once lost. But you want to also include all the others of humanity. So to them I also say yes. And yes there are some that actually do respond and seek for a time and fall away (this is not a denial of once saved always saved).
3. Can humanity respond to the light without an irresistible grace (I'm assuming this is what you are getting at. If not let me know).... this answer is yes.

So there you go, got off track. My apologies.


Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Let me just address a few of the above statements. Too many to address.

1) You either believe once saved always saved or you do not, the seem is double talk.

2) Without evidence, you are claiming I may be a deist. That is the old guilty until proven innocent fiction. It is an effort to change the subject.

3) Next you assert Prevenient grace must be proven not to exist, rather than proven to exist. See a pattern?

4) The fictional "need" for Prevenient grace is traditionally because the "Fall" so corrupted humanity that they cannot seek God or trust in Christ. Total fiction without a shred of actual support in scripture. We have many verses where humans have their hearts hardened, but none where "prevenient grace" softens humanity.

5) The issue is not that we love Him because He first loved us, the issue is our ability to seek God as revealed by what He has made.

6) Next you veer off into vessel double talk, first the sower is the vessel, then the received of the seed is the vessel. Irrelevant.

7) Lastly, you read into the text supernatural enablement when someone simply hears and understands and responds positively to God's revelation. But not one verse which supports that actually supports that claim.

 

[Paleouss]

Let me just address a few of the above statements. Too many to address

Thank you for you time Van. I appreciate you trying to impart some wisdom to me.

Regarding the quote above, you are right. There are a lot of topics going on. So let's try and narrow them down so we can get into the weeds and drill down.

Let's start with your interpretation of John 12:32. You had previously suggested that my interpretation was wrong. I'd like to know what you think it means in John 12:32 when it says, I "will draw all [peoples] to myself"?

(John 12:32 NKJV) 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

Again, thank you for your time
Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Thank you for you time Van. I appreciate you trying to impart some wisdom to me.

Regarding the quote above, you are right. There are a lot of topics going on. So let's try and narrow them down so we can get into the weeds and drill down.

Let's start with your interpretation of John 12:32. You had previously suggested that my interpretation was wrong. I'd like to know what you think it means in John 12:32 when it says, I "will draw all [peoples] to myself"?

Again, thank you for your time
Peace to you brother.

Yes, and thank you.

First, your translation (NKJV) puts "peoples" in brackets indicating an addition to provide clarity as understood by the translators. If we delete the addition, we see the verse says I will draw "all" to Myself. What is the scope of al, contextually interpreted. All the people that did not know Christ was crucified for their sake? Nope. All the people who heard and understood Christ was crucified for their sake? Yes. We are drawn (attracted) by the knowledge of Christ's lovingkindness, i.e. we love Him because He first loved us.

Here again is what I said previously:

All people are NOT drawn "upon Christ's "death and resurrection" People are "drawn" (attracted) when and if they "behold" (become aware) that Christ suffered crucifixion in order to provide the means of reconciliation to all people.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings Van. Thank you for your thoughtful and kind post.

First, your translation (NKJV) puts "peoples" in brackets indicating an addition to provide clarity as understood by the translators. If we delete the addition, we see the verse says I will draw "all" to Myself.

I must say, I'm impressed. You seem to be the first that I have encountered that brings up this nuance (although most I debate about this verse are probably more Calvinists). That is, [peoples] is an added translator word that is not in the original Greek text. So John 12:32 says, I... will draw all to Myself." Just as you said.

So kudos to you (not that you need them from me).

All the people that did not know Christ was crucified for their sake? Nope. All the people who heard and understood Christ was crucified for their sake? Yes. We are drawn (attracted) by the knowledge of Christ's lovingkindness, i.e. we love Him because He first loved us.

This is where I disagree. Your position would seem to remind me of the Calvinist (not saying exactly or that you are one) that claim that the context for John 12:32 should be Revelation 5:9 and John 6:44, 6:37. In other words, the Calvinist would claim that "all peoples" means 'all types of people', or all types of 'to be saved' people. (again, not claiming your position is exactly this but that it seems similar in that it attempts to restrict the word "all").

I think that context is import, like I'm sure you do as well. First and foremost, immediate context. After that, context within the same book and then the Bible as a whole.

The context for John 12:32, the most relevant and immediate context, is John 12:31. John 12:31 sets the stage for what is being said and how we should read John 12:32.

(John 12:31 NKJV) 31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

In the book of John, the phrase “ruler of this world” found here in John 12:31 can also be found in John 14:30 and John 16:11. The phrase is no doubt synonymous with the phrase “ruler of this age” (2Cor 4:4), which is a reference to Satan and his dominion over mankind and earth (2Tim 2:26). Satan, according to 2Timothy 2:26, has “taken captive” mankind, blinding them and binding or chaining them with the power of sin and death (Heb 2:14) and made mankind slaves under a power of darkness (Col 1:13, Luke 22:53).

It should be noted that John 12:31 sets the context for John 12:32 as being about “the judgement of this world” (John 12:31). We know that when John says “world” he means ‘all of creation’ and not the ‘elect only’ because he then goes on to write, “the ruler of this world will be cast out” (John 12:31). The context that has just been established by John 12:31 is about, literally and specifically, the kingdom of darkness, the world, its ruler and the Cosmic Triumph of Jesus Christ over it. So if the immediate context of John 12:32 is that of Christ’s Cosmic Triumph then it follows that John 12:32 should be read under the context of the Cosmic Triumph.

Since the Cosmic Triumph’s part of the multiple intentions view (which is my view) was to the benefit of all mankind, it would then follow that when John 12:32 says, “will draw all [peoples] to Myself”. He literally means all peoples. Not all that hear (that would be inferred), not all types (that would be inferred), but "all" (which is explicitly what is says) in the Cosmic Triumph sense (which is the context of 12:31).

This being the case, one can then see how John 12:32 sounds similar (not exact) to the theme of Colossians 1:20 which also falls under the theme of the Son of God’s Cosmic Triumph. Colossians 1:20 reads,

(Col 1:20 NKJV) 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Colossians 1:20 is one of the many verses that pertain to Christ’s Cosmic Triumph upon the Cross (to name only a few others…1Cor 15:24-28; Rom 8:20-23; Psa 8:6; Heb 2:8; Eph 6:12; 1Pet 3:22; Col 2:15; John 3:8; Heb 2:14; Col 1:13-14; Rom 8:3; Rom 6: 6-7,14; Eph 6:12; 1Pet 3:22; Col 2:15;1Pet 4:11; 1Pet 5:11; Jude 1:25; Rev 1:6; Rom 14:8-9; Act 2:36; Rom 6:9; 1Cor 15:55; 1Pet 3:19; Matt 16:18; Luke 16:23; Act 2:27,31; 1Cor 15:55; Rev 1:18; Rev 6:8; Rev 20: 13-14; Rom 6:9).

So John, in John 12:32, intends to mean all people without limit, for it falls under the immediate theme and context of Chirst’s Cosmic Triumph that John established in John 12:31.

1. John 12:31 sets the immediate context as the Cosmic Triumph of Christ.
2. What John 12:32 says is therefore within the context of the Cosmic Triumph of Christ.
3. Thus, within the proper context, “all [peoples]” means all with no limit or restriction. For the Cosmic Triumph benefits all creation, even all men with no limit.


The next hurdle would seem to be the word "draw".
One interesting observation comes up when reviewing all the verses that contain the Greek word helkō. Here is the themes of the other verses that have the Greek word helkō in them:

Interesting Observations:
1. John 21:6 uses the Greek word helkō in the context of not being able to draw in.
2. Four verses (James, 2:6, John 18:10, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30) denote a forceful dragging.
3. Those exact same four verses (James, 2:6, John 18:10, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30) have a theme of taking to court or judgement.
4. Two verses (John 21:6, John 21:11) have to do with throwing a large net indiscriminately into the water and trying to catch some fish, any fish.

The fact that the word helkō is used in more of a context within the Bible as forceful drawing, as in dragging, would seem to fit better within the context of John 12:31 and its context of the Cosmic Triumph. That is, in the light of the Cosmic Triumph which is the Son of God as conqueror, a forcefulness of the draw can easily fit within a concept of "every knee shall bow” and “every tongue shall confess” (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11). In other words, all roads lead to Rome. In this case, all roads lead to Christ, He will draw all things to Himself. (again, this is not Universalism).

In summery
A. John 12:32 actually and explicitly says, I...will draw all to Myself.
B. The context of John 12:32 is of the Cosmic Triumph established in John 12:31. The Cosmic Triumph is the putting of all things under His foot (all meaning all).
C. the Greek word helkō suggests a forceful drawing that casts a wide net for any and all fish.


Peace and hope to you brother Van

 

[Van]

sNIP

This is where I disagree. Your position would seem to remind me of the Calvinist (not saying exactly or that you are one) that claim that the context for John 12:32 should be Revelation 5:9 and John 6:44, 6:37. In other words, the Calvinist would claim that "all peoples" means 'all types of people', or all types of 'to be saved' people. (again, not claiming your position is exactly this but that it seems similar in that it attempts to restrict the word "all").

Once again you are addressing what I did not say, and ignoring what I said. The "all" refers to those who become aware Christ was crucified to provide salvation to them. They are drawn by God's lovingkindness. That view arises from the context. To claim people are drawn by Christ being crucified, with knowledge Christ was crucified is ludicrous.

SNIP
Since the Cosmic Triumph’s part of the multiple intentions view (which is my view) was to the benefit of all mankind, it would then follow that when John 12:32 says, “will draw all [peoples] to Myself”. He literally means all peoples. Not all that hear (that would be inferred), not all types (that would be inferred), but "all" (which is explicitly what is says) in the Cosmic Triumph sense (which is the context of 12:31).

The "Cosmic Triumph" did not result "to the benefit of all mankind." Those that do not hear and accept the gospel have no chance of benefit. They face the second death.

The next hurdle would seem to be the word "draw".
One interesting observation comes up when reviewing all the verses that contain the Greek word helkō. Here is the themes of the other verses that have the Greek word helkō in them:

The Greek word is used literally, forcefully drag something material, and metaphorically, to attract someone.

In summery
A. John 12:32 actually and explicitly says, I...will draw all to Myself.
B. The context of John 12:32 is of the Cosmic Triumph established in John 12:31. The Cosmic Triumph is the putting of all things under His foot (all meaning all).
C. the Greek word helkō suggests a forceful drawing that casts a wide net for any and all fish.


Peace and hope to you brother Van

1) Yes, we agree, the verse explicitly says I will draw all to Myself. The scope of all is what is in dispute.

2) The "Cosmic Triumph" is not "established" by John 12:31. The idea is those saved from the judgement will have Satan thrown out of their lives. Thus Christ's sacrifice will provide the means to salvation and the overthrown of the ruler in humanity.

3) The Greek word, in this context, is being used metaphorically to indicate the attraction of the lovingkindness of Christ.

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you for your reply Van. Peace to you brother.

Once again you are addressing what I did not say, and ignoring what I said.

My apologies if that is the case. I assure you I am not intentionally ignoring anything. If I pass over your point it is because I missed it, for got to address it, or don't fully understand it (I am a little slow sometimes).

The "Cosmic Triumph" did not result "to the benefit of all mankind." Those that do not hear and accept the gospel have no chance of benefit. They face the second death.

Do you have any biblical verses that say that those that do not hear and accept the gospel have no benefit from the Cosmic Triumph?

It seems to me that we have differing views of what the Cosmic Triumph is or means. You can find my view of the multiple accomplishments of the atonement 1here and the logical argument for my assertion that the Cosmic Triumph portion of the Atonement, one of multiple accomplishments, was to the benefit of all mankind 2here.

1) Yes, we agree, the verse explicitly says I will draw all to Myself. The scope of all is what is in dispute.

Awesome. I might add however, we also have a dispute on what "draw" means and its implication.

2) The "Cosmic Triumph" is not "established" by John 12:31. The idea is those saved from the judgement will have Satan thrown out of their lives. Thus Christ's sacrifice will provide the means to salvation and the overthrown of the ruler in humanity.

Please breakdown John 12:31 so I can see this. It seems to me that you infer words and ideas into the text. For example, I see no references to "those saved from judgement" being mentioned (by what contextual evidence do you restrict the word "all" to only those saved from judgement?). Nor any references of "Satan being thrown out of their lives" (by what contextual evidence do you infer Satan being thrown out of "their lives"... "their" meaning those saved only?). Nor does it anywhere say "Christ's sacrifice will provide the means" (although I agree with your statement in general, this verse does not say or mean this).

It explicitly says. (John 12:31-32 NKJV) 31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

3) The Greek word, in this context, is being used metaphorically to indicate the attraction of the lovingkindness of Christ.

John is not presenting that Christ is nor is Christ saying He is giving a parable. There is no reason to think that John's actual account of what Jesus said is metaphorical. You say that the Greek word helkō in this context is metaphorical. By what contextual evidence to you make this statement? Or, can you provide any other use of the word helkō that is used in the Bible in the metaphoric sense?



Peace to you brother
and again, thank you for your time.

 

[Van]

Thank you for your reply Van. Peace to you brother.


My apologies if that is the case. I assure you I am not intentionally ignoring anything. If I pass over your point it is because I missed it, for got to address it, or don't fully understand it (I am a little slow sometimes).

Do you have any biblical verses that say that those that do not hear and accept the gospel have no benefit from the Cosmic Triumph?

It seems to me that we have differing views of what the Cosmic Triumph is or means. You can find my view of the multiple accomplishments of the atonement 1here and the logical argument for my assertion that the Cosmic Triumph portion of the Atonement, one of multiple accomplishments, was to the benefit of all mankind 2here.

Awesome. I might add however, we also have a dispute on what "draw" means and its implication.

Please breakdown John 12:31 so I can see this. It seems to me that you infer words and ideas into the text. For example, I see no references to "those saved from judgement" being mentioned (by what contextual evidence do you restrict the word "all" to only those saved from judgement?). Nor any references of "Satan being thrown out of their lives" (by what contextual evidence do you infer Satan being thrown out of "their lives"... "their" meaning those saved only?). Nor does it anywhere say "Christ's sacrifice will provide the means" (although I agree with your statement in general, this verse does not say or mean this).

It explicitly says. (John 12:31-32 NKJV) 31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

John is not presenting that Christ is nor is Christ saying He is giving a parable. There is no reason to think that John's actual account of what Jesus said is metaphorical. You say that the Greek word helkō in this context is metaphorical. By what contextual evidence to you make this statement? Or, can you provide any other use of the word helkō that is used in the Bible in the metaphoric sense?



Peace to you brother
and again, thank you for your time.

Sir it is pointless to continue. I say a word is being used metaphorically and you respond with a denial that the account is metaphorical. This after says the account is a parable.