Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
If the Father doesn't Draw a person could they come to believe on Christ with their own free wil according to Jn 6:44?
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 3
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
Of course not! But the Father does draw all men. As Paul said, "for the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men...'
How has salvation appeared to all men, BF, according to the Scripture? What did Paul say about this?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Not what Eph 2:8-9 tells us BF. Care to try again?
I believe you are reading John 6:44 & 6:65 the wrong way. These verses are articulating the judgement of God on unrepentant sinners, in the first instance, and so do not deny the "perfect law that gives freedom" (James 1:25), as given by Moses to them. For the character of the Father is impartiality "They will all be taught by God" Is 54:13 etc.
The idea in John 6:44 & 6:65 is sourced in Isaiah 6:10 "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."
The preaching of Isaiah was intended as judgement on unrepentant sinners who had used their free will under the law (cf. Deut 30) to abandon (i.e. apostatize from) Moses, resulting in the hardening of their hearts and preventing God giving anything more to them. As Jesus said, "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but whoever has not, from him even what he has shall be taken away." Matt 13:12. This includes even "free will" that when forfeited through sin prevents the unrepentant coming to Christ.
So even if John 6:44 & 6:65 seem to demonstrate lack of free will, much more so, vis-a-vis the Jews, do they demonstrate the consequences of men culpably exercising their free will given to them under Moses in the wrong direction. With God, mercy and judgement are commonly juxtaposed: Hab 3:2. In John 12:48, etc, Jesus infers that his words would judge every man, which is to say, God was using Christ to apportion his grace - his grace appearing to all and made available to all indiscrimately - as between different categories of sinner: the lost sheep versus satan's sheep - into which categories men place themselves according to how they engage their free will.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Then the natural man doesn't have freewill to believe in Christ!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You mean it is not what it tells you!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I don't
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It does not say what the calvinist want it to say BF. What it tells us is that salvation is the gift of God which we receive through faith. And we further see that faith is not a work.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
What we as natural men dont comprehend is that by nature we are dead to God, in such a condition we are without any hope in and of ourselves, like these gentiles Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
This means nothing can possibly be done by man to change his plight, he can not do anything spiritually good towards salvation. Without spiritual life its a dead end. By nature we cant even think a spiritual thought 2 Cor 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Jesus even told His disciples in regards to spiritual matters Jn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
So what about a person dead in sin ? How can they come to Christ, a spiritual act, by their own freewill in the flesh ? 14
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
This means nothing can possibly be done by man to change his plight, he can not do anything spiritually good towards salvation. Without spiritual life its a dead end. By nature we cant even think a spiritual thought 2 Cor 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Jesus even told His disciples in regards to spiritual matters Jn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
So what about a person dead in sin ? How can they come to Christ, a spiritual act, by their own freewill in the flesh ? 14
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It doesnt say it to you. Also man naturally cannot believe in Jesus Christ Jn 6:44, he may believe in a false christ, like the one who supposedly died for all mankind.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You have out done yourself BF. This is the worst abuse of scripture that I have seen from you in a long time.
You continue to cherry pick out of context verses in the vain attempt to support your false religions view.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Man can freely trust in God and that is why he will be judged for rejecting Him. If man could not do so then God denies Himself.
What does Paul tell us?
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
What are we told about the gospel:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
But why would they call on God for salvation?
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
That is why we are to preach the good news to all so that some may turn from their sin and trust in the risen Christ for their salvation.
You BF are following a false religion based on pagan philosophy.
I am shocked that you would call the son of God a false Christ. The bible is clear BF that He is the propitiation for the whole world but you clearly deny this truth.
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
You even go so far as to call Him a false christ, that is blasphemy BF for which you need to repent.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Brightfame52
God created us TO SEEK HIM and FIND HIM; Act_17:26-31
Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Joh_6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh_12:32 BSB 1.2) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”
According to rules of logic what can be said with certainty from this verse {Joh_6:44} is – Some who will be raised by Christ on the last day will first be both drawn and will come to Christ. There are no rules of logic that make this statement to mean that everyone drawn must come to Christ. For that to be true, the verse would have to read, “No one is able NOT to come to Me WHEN the Father draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” brianwagner
God created us TO SEEK HIM and FIND HIM; Act_17:26-31
Act 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Act 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Joh_6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh_12:32 BSB 1.2) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”
According to rules of logic what can be said with certainty from this verse {Joh_6:44} is – Some who will be raised by Christ on the last day will first be both drawn and will come to Christ. There are no rules of logic that make this statement to mean that everyone drawn must come to Christ. For that to be true, the verse would have to read, “No one is able NOT to come to Me WHEN the Father draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” brianwagner
Paul said that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
What does that mean, BF?
What can the hearing of the Word of God do for depraved man?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
By nature man is in a hopeless situation friend.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
No he cant, and he will be Judged for all his sins against God if he isnt elect.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The elect. Not the vessels of wrath
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You just agreed that if man by nature isnt drawn by the Father he cant come to Christ and believe. You still believe that or not ?
BF, it's the hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that draws man to Christ.
But drawing does not mean accepting, it's an invitation that most in this world will reject.
You do, for the reason I stated: the Jews had already been given free will by Moses, per Deut 30. When Christ came, the apostates from Moses were shut out from the new covenant, as being disabled by the Father because of their sins. This equates to excommunication from the new covenant.
It's the big picture you're not seeing. Paul continues the thesis by requiring excommunication of the unrepentant & lapsed (1 Cor. 5 etc.).
No one is disabled by God without a good reason.