Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is not a concern as the God draws all. Read your bible BF.
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill ! 3
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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That is not a concern as the God draws all. Read your bible BF.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ?
37818
Well-Known Member
The if premise being false. So it wouldn't matter.
John 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do they have the free will option, YES would they possibly. But as I said since God draws all to Him then that is not an issue.
What do you think creation and the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for BF?
The ability to come to Christ depends on one's willingness to hear the Father.
"Free will" as such is not given until faith comes and "the Son has set a person free," and is what is confusing you. The issue of coming to Christ doesn't depend on free will, so much as willingness to hear the Father, and learn from the Father, who first spoke through Moses, and speaks through the Spirit and through the gospel.
Disability to hear the Father arises from "loving evil" and not because "God consigned you before the foundation of the world never to hear the Father's voice."
Heb 3:15 “Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Heb 3:18 "And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?"
So, no biblical support for your double-predestination thesis. The bible teaches that disobedience alone is the underlying cause of unbelief. Who are you to teach otherwise?
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesn't draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ? Yes or no
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Do they have the freewill ability ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
if the Father doesnt draw a person, do they have a freewill option to believe in Christ ? Yes or No Read Jn 6:44
Yes and no.
The fact is that God has made everything so that people would find Him. That is drawing people to Himself. So the point that is moot should be mute.
But Jesus said that He would draw all men to Himself. That is draw enough for all people. So the Son draws people to Himself and He said all men. Taken literally, it says every person. If you begin to say all doesn’t mean all, you change the meaning of the language to fit your preferred doctrine.
The question makes no sense, as free will proper only comes with faith. So I think you mean, 'freedom to hear God'; as to which Paul heard the voice of Christ whilst still in his sins. Drawing comes with hearing, and hearing comes with listening to God's voice, which depends partly on us but also initially on the workings of God's spirit in mercy, in preaching and in teaching.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats doublrmindness
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Then dont answer it
37818
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What did I just say BF?
You are under the false impression that all men are just robots such as your religion requires.
You believe the men that taught you that but it is not biblical.
God gave man the free will with which to make real eternal destiny changing choices.
You will disagree but then you are disagreeing with God and ignoring His written word.
No it isn’t.
You shouldn’t single out one statement and pull it out of context.
That is dishonest to the conversation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You dodging the question
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes it is
What you do continuously. And your question makes no sense, as "If the son sets you free, you will be free indeed" is plainly based on the premise that a person has that ability to listen to the son even whilst not free, unless called to judgement by God ahead of time because of sin, as were most of the pharisees.
The sorts of questions I think you should be focussing on are:
(1) "Does a major sinner under God's wrath, due to a prior decision to make satan his master, have the ability to come to Christ?" Answer: Perhaps not ordinarily, unless some supervening act by God occurs. Some might call this prevenient grace, but I would call it "a miracle of the Spirit" pursuant to the gospel.
(2) "Does a relatively minor sinner under God's mercy, due to becoming lost due to the prevalence of wickedness, or lack of self-discipline, have the ability to come to Christ?" Answer: Yes, provided he makes the effort to repent, inquire into and listen to the gospel. Such would include the children of Christians (I would include the prodigal son in this category). The Spirit must be involved, as new birth is "from above".
(3) "Who is under God's mercy and who is under God's wrath"? Answer: it is the apostolic doctrine that "all are under God's mercy" Rom 11:32, but it is also the apostolic doctrine that "But now as yet we see not all things put under him" Heb 2:8. Every man is entitled to draw their own conclusions as to whether a person has faith, but one can never discount that any person without faith may be saved at some point in the future. But, experience teaches us that the longer a person goes on in their sins, the less likely they are to repent.
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What are you 5?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How can it be plainer BF? You just do not like that answer do you.
Are you so blinded by your false religion that you cannot see what is right in front of you?
Read this again slowly and perhaps it will sink in.
God gave man the free will with which to make real eternal destiny changing choices.
You will disagree but then you are disagreeing with God and ignoring His written word.