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In Perils Among False Brethren;

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?

I hope you don't think that because I disagree with Calvinism I'm an enemy of the Cross.

It's not a particular doctrine that saves, faith in the finished work of Christ saves the soul from the wrath to come.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I hope you don't think that because I disagree with Calvinism I'm an enemy of the Cross.

It's not a particular doctrine that saves, faith in the finished work of Christ saves the soul from the wrath to come.
No... you have never studied it enough so far...I am speaking about people who say...I used to be a Calvinist, or I used to be a Christian.
2 tim4:
2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No... you have never studied it enough so far...I am speaking about people who say...I used to be a Calvinist, or I used to be a Christian.
2 tim4:
2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

So are you suggesting that only calvinists can be saved?

Only two views of Calvinism
"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it."

So someone leaving calvinism is not an indication they have lost faith but rather that they have found calvinism to be a false teaching of God's word.
 
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Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
So are you suggesting that only calvinists can be saved?

Only two views of Calvinism
"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment
That would be true, If Calvinism was wrong.
If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.
No wrong... God would have decreed to leave them dead in Adam, which leads to the resistance of the natural man.
The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth
Not all men are children of God. people have to be adopted and granted new birth to be God's children.
for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
you need to study adoption
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it."
Yes, if people want to reject truth . it is on them. We just are to be faithful to truth.
So someone leaving calvinism is not an indication they have lost faith but rather that they have found calvinism to be a false teaching of God's word.
It would be an indication they never grasped it to begin with. many religious people try many things.Like the false teachers and false proffesors in the 1st century 1jn2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
That would be true, If Calvinism was wrong.

No wrong... God would have decreed to leave them dead in Adam, which leads to the resistance of the natural man.

Not all men are children of God. people have to be adopted and granted new birth to be God's children.

you need to study adoption

Yes, if people want to reject truth . it is on them. We just are to be faithful to truth.

It would be an indication they never grasped it to begin with. many religious people try many things.Like the false teachers and false proffesors in the 1st century 1jn2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Z all you do is parrot the teachings of other calvinists. Have you ever taken the time to look at the foundations of your religion? I doubt that you have.

Calvinism is not the gospel Z. That is your first mistake.

I have tried to point you back to the truth as found in the word of God but you keep rejecting His truth as it does not fit with your man-made religion.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Z all you do is parrot the teachings of other calvinists. Have you ever taken the time to look at the foundations of your religion? I doubt that you have.

Calvinism is not the gospel Z. That is your first mistake.

I have tried to point you back to the truth as found in the word of God but you keep rejecting His truth as it does not fit with your man-made religion.
When you want to actually discuss scripture , we could do that. Not your foolish charges.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
When you want to actually discuss scripture , we could do that. Not your foolish charges.

I have done just that and all you do is say I do not accept the calvinist view. That is true as I hold the word of God as we find in the bible not the altered view that you are trying to promote. Your particular view comes from the 4th century man-made view of augustine and later calvin and those that followed him.

Have you actually bothered to check out the foundations of your errant view? Doubt that you have.

We have dealt with scripture but you just will not accept what the bible says.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I have done just that and all you do is say I do not accept the calvinist view. That is true as I hold the word of God as we find in the bible not the altered view that you are trying to promote. Your particular view comes from the 4th century man-made view of augustine and later calvin and those that followed him.

Have you actually bothered to check out the foundations of your errant view? Doubt that you have.

We have dealt with scripture but you just will not accept what the bible says.
you say the same thing over and over,not sure if you are serious
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Zaatar71 makes a good point about understanding.

I have found, over the past couple of decades, that sometimes we defend our beliefs almost as one cheers for their favorite sports team.

But both sides of an argument needs to understand the opposing position.

I understand Calvinism (more than some Calvinists as I was one for quite a while). But there are some positions where I have asked adherents of those views questions to understand their beliefs.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
you say the same thing over and over,not sure if you are serious

Have you even made the effort to look at the foundations of your view? I doubt that you have so I really cannot take you seriously.

All I see from you is a parroting of the same calvinist line.

When you oppose scripture and say it has another meaning than what is written then you are trusting in yourself not the word of God.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?
It has been my experience that the opposite is true. Nearly every Calvinist whose testimony I have heard or read has said they were a so called Armenian before they saw the light of Calvinism and converted to it. What is your testimony?
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?
How in the world is it worse to be a former Calvinist than a former Christian? That seems to say that only Calvinists are saved.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
How in the world is it worse to be a former Calvinist than a former Christian? That seems to say that only Calvinists are saved.
Hello JOJ,
This is a good and important question. Not all Christians are Calvinists. To be in the mainstream of what is known as A "Calvinist" is to be the same as a rank-and-file Christian in that they believe the fundamentals of the Faith, Triune God, The fall into sin and death, Necessity of the New Birth,
The reality of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, Resurrection and return of Christ, etc.
There are Christians who have not studied themselves into these positions and still work on what is true, and what is false. They still wrestle over passages and seek to refine what they believe, Calvinists do also, they read views of those who have not yet came to see that position as the biblical truth. J.C. Ryle is a good example of just such a person. His works on Holiness and The Christian life are classic and welcomed reads for all believers. That being said, we see many who are similar, in that they could not agree with the L. for some reason, yet they have a godly walk, and can be agreeable on many things.,. What we see in our time is some who claim, "I used to be a Calvinist", but then they go against every text and teaching that Confessional believers have held. It is not only that they claim to formerly have held to these truths, but in posting about these issues, cannot actually give the mainstream position in a way that demonstrates they had a grasp on it to begin with.
This indicates that perhaps they were in an assembly that might have taught these things, they learned a rough outline of some of the things, some of the terms, a bit of History. However upon further investigation, their understanding was quite defective and in fact shows they were not the real deal. These other professed Christion's who now call themselves "Christian deconstructionists", who go on to say that they never really believed in the Trinity, or Jesus being raised from the dead. Where they real Christians at all, or religious professors who never were indwelt with the Spirit?

When someone attacks a position without credibility, they are enemies of the Cross of Christ.
1tim1:
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2tim.2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


2tim.1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2tim4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
It has been my experience that the opposite is true. Nearly every Calvinist whose testimony I have heard or read has said they were a so called Armenian before they saw the light of Calvinism and converted to it. What is your testimony?
I believed in election and predestination , before I even know of any of the theological terms, or former controversies. As I read the bible, first as an unbeliever, then as a new believer, when I read about election and predestination, I just said, If God id God, He knows what He is doing and Wht He does it, So I just better try and understand these truths more. I knew God has to be in total control, or he could not be God.
Did I understand it all, NO, I am still learning and growing in my understanding of it.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I disagree to an extent, @Zaatar71 .

Typically what is viewed as "attacking a position" is when those who do not agree with that position express their disagreement. But we should "attack" even our own positions in this way because if they do not stand up to the "attack" they are mot worth holding.

You also need to define "credibility".

For me, any Christian offers a credible argument if they are evaluating a position via Scripture.

People do not need to have a masters degree in theology to evaluate what a person says the Bible teaches against what is actually written in Scripture. Now, it may help when it comes to having studied historical theology and the biblical languages, but it is fairly simple to compare the biblical text against God's words. Often people define "credibility" as being those who have a formal education in theology AND agree with their positions. I believe that type of thinking is flawed (even though I do have a formal education in theology).

I do not believe that Scripture is God's revelation to the religious elite (often the religious elite, the scholars and theologians, are the ones who cannot accept what God has revealed as it falls below their standards and expectations). Instead I believe that Scripture was written for the "common man" of the time of its writing (like fisherman, tax collector, farmers) and has baffled those who think themselves wise for centuries.


Another issue of disagreement is equating "attacking" a position with "doing evil" to the person who holds that position. It is, I believe, the exact opposite in reality. If you look at my belief and point out that it departs from Scripture then you do me a favor rather than an evil.


That said, I have seen arguments against Calvinism that were based on stereotypes and misunderstanding. One of these is the "cosmic child abuse argument".

But having come out of Calvinism, having been a Calvinist, having taught theology, having studied theology, theogical development, and historical theology, I have some insights that those within Calvinism who never went to seminary may overlook (or simply not know). But this helps realizing what is presupposes in a position rather than judging whether those presuppositions are wrong.

Ultimately, however, every Christian has the ability and responsibility to test their faith against the words of God.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I disagree to an extent, @Zaatar71 .
A forum like this is in part for that purpose. You can agree or disagree, as I will do shortly.
Typically what is viewed as "attacking a position" is when those who do not agree with that position express their disagreement. But we should "attack" even our own positions in this way because if they do not stand up to the "attack" they are mot worth holding.
I believe that historically rooted positions that are denied, or called theory, or philosophy is an attack. When people have described biblically major portions of truth and others insist on denying that, or actually questioning God's revealed word. I see it as an attack, just as much as Satan asked "has God Said"?
You also need to define "credibility".
Credibility is when a person offers their own personal idea, that no one else has suggested at any time in Church History, not in any Confession of faith. On these issues Confessional Churches agree on the Cross.
For me, any Christian offers a credible argument if they are evaluating a position via Scripture.
Sure, if they do not deny Biblical definitions which has to take place to deny these teachings.
People do not need to have a masters degree in theology to evaluate what a person says the Bible teaches against what is actually written in Scripture.
I see that the poster Martin M, has done a solid job of offering the Historic teaching, and the Current understanding in Churches.
Now, it may help when it comes to having studied historical theology and the biblical languages, but it is fairly simple to compare the biblical text against God's words.
Martin and others have done that day in and day out.
Often people define "credibility" as being those who have a formal education in theology AND agree with their positions. I believe that type of thinking is flawed (even though I do have a formal education in theology).
Claims of a formal education are not conclusive, or necessarily true. The truth of such claims without biblical alignment to the truth once delivered to the saints shows a lack of credibility. I can claim to be a master auto mechanic, but if I cannot explain the basics of a car engine, I in turn would wipe away any credibility, no one would take me seriously. In the same way, when posters state things that no one else does. they cannot be a trusted guide.
I do not believe that Scripture is God's revelation to the religious elite (often the religious elite, the scholars and theologians, are the ones who cannot accept what God has revealed as it falls below their standards and expectations).
This might be your stated opinion, but that is all it is. Why call educated and gifted teachers. the religious elite?
Jn.3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Instead I believe that Scripture was written for the "common man" of the time of its writing (like fisherman, tax collector, farmers) and has baffled those who think themselves wise for centuries.
It is, however God for some reason has given Pastors and teachers, to local churches, to preach and to teach the gospel of the Kingdom as we see in Acts 28:
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. He does not say, He just kept saying, Just believe what was written, like I claim to do. He opened the scripture concerning the Kingdom for two years! The says that preaching, and teaching happened.

Another issue of disagreement is equating "attacking" a position with "doing evil" to the person who holds that position. It is, I believe, the exact opposite in reality. If you look at my belief and point out that it departs from Scripture then you do me a favor rather than an evil.
People have offered you help, you reject it. That is fine, but you stand alone.
That said, I have seen arguments against Calvinism that were based on stereotypes and misunderstanding. One of these is the "cosmic child abuse argument".
yes, It is often attacked by caricatures and strawmen
But having come out of Calvinism, having been a Calvinist,
Again, that is your claim, that we cannot verify. You do not give any evidence of that. Instead you are with those who oppose the se truths. That is your right to do so, but all the Cals, and those who are studying toward the position do not seem to accept your claim, based on what they se you post. These topics are not about, you and what you claim, they are about Jesus and the Cross.
having taught theology, having studied theology, theogical development, and historical theology,
We have no verification of that. That is your claim. Some might question that.
I have some insights that those within Calvinism who never went to seminary may overlook (or simply not know).
This is yet another claim that distracts from the discussion.
But this helps realizing what is presupposes in a position rather than judging whether those presuppositions are wrong.
your view.
Ultimately, however, every Christian has the ability and responsibility to test their faith against the words of God.
Yes indeed.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?
The premise of this thread seems to be if you change your understanding from what you first learned, then you may be a false brethren. Sounds like Apollos (Acts 18:24-28) is a false brethren in the eyes of Zaatar71.

 
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