In Perils Among False Brethren;

[JesusFan]

2 Corinthians 11:26
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

Paul lists many dangers he faced, many enemies. Have you ever come across these former Christians, who post videos on why The have deconstructed the faith?
Or even worse, those who claim to be former Calvinists who have drifted off from the truth?
You can mark it down, it is going to be a non stop attack from the enemy of the Cross!

Have you experienced this?

just look at the likes of Rob bell, or Brian Mclaren, who seek to make Christian relevant in the post modern age by making sure their theologies reflect moving to heresy

 

[JesusFan]

Number 1

No... you have never studied it enough so far...I am speaking about people who say...I used to be a Calvinist, or I used to be a Christian.
2 tim4:
2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

on this list has to be

• • Leighton Flowers: A former Southern Baptist pastor who now argues against Calvinism and has become a prominent voice for the broader evangelical public on the topic of Calvinism, according to Facebook posts and Reddit users.

 

[JesusFan]

So are you suggesting that only calvinists can be saved?

Only two views of Calvinism
"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it."

So someone leaving calvinism is not an indication they have lost faith but rather that they have found calvinism to be a false teaching of God's word.

No, rather he is suggesting that sometimes those who either misunderstood what Calvinism really teaches, or else are very angry/bitter at it can at times go so far other way they embrace doctrines and theology counter to the Cross itself, ending up with a severe misunderstanding of Pauline Justification

 

[JesusFan]

Z all you do is parrot the teachings of other calvinists. Have you ever taken the time to look at the foundations of your religion? I doubt that you have.

Calvinism is not the gospel Z. That is your first mistake.

I have tried to point you back to the truth as found in the word of God but you keep rejecting His truth as it does not fit with your man-made religion.

But you take your stance on the full free will gospel, so did Jesus death to you be for a real salvation, or just offering a potential one, as in God looks down from heaven hoping someone can make the right choice and choose Jesus to save them?

 

[JesusFan]

It has been my experience that the opposite is true. Nearly every Calvinist whose testimony I have heard or read has said they were a so called Armenian before they saw the light of Calvinism and converted to it. What is your testimony?

ALL of us here who are saved were saved the same way, its just that Calvinism explains it much more from the biblical perspective on how and why God saved us

 

[JesusFan]

I disagree to an extent, @Zaatar71 .

Typically what is viewed as "attacking a position" is when those who do not agree with that position express their disagreement. But we should "attack" even our own positions in this way because if they do not stand up to the "attack" they are mot worth holding.

You also need to define "credibility".

For me, any Christian offers a credible argument if they are evaluating a position via Scripture.

People do not need to have a masters degree in theology to evaluate what a person says the Bible teaches against what is actually written in Scripture. Now, it may help when it comes to having studied historical theology and the biblical languages, but it is fairly simple to compare the biblical text against God's words. Often people define "credibility" as being those who have a formal education in theology AND agree with their positions. I believe that type of thinking is flawed (even though I do have a formal education in theology).

I do not believe that Scripture is God's revelation to the religious elite (often the religious elite, the scholars and theologians, are the ones who cannot accept what God has revealed as it falls below their standards and expectations). Instead I believe that Scripture was written for the "common man" of the time of its writing (like fisherman, tax collector, farmers) and has baffled those who think themselves wise for centuries.


Another issue of disagreement is equating "attacking" a position with "doing evil" to the person who holds that position. It is, I believe, the exact opposite in reality. If you look at my belief and point out that it departs from Scripture then you do me a favor rather than an evil.


That said, I have seen arguments against Calvinism that were based on stereotypes and misunderstanding. One of these is the "cosmic child abuse argument".

But having come out of Calvinism, having been a Calvinist, having taught theology, having studied theology, theogical development, and historical theology, I have some insights that those within Calvinism who never went to seminary may overlook (or simply not know). But this helps realizing what is presupposes in a position rather than judging whether those presuppositions are wrong.

Ultimately, however, every Christian has the ability and responsibility to test their faith against the words of God.

But when you conclusion in regards to theology proper end ups flying in the face of all the Creeds and Confessions, and the teachings of various expositors over the centuries, NOT just Baptist but across all conservative Christians theologies, that should give us pause to really check to make sure that we are not following just novel theology we made up ourselves

 

[JesusFan]

A forum like this is in part for that purpose. You can agree or disagree, as I will do shortly.

I believe that historically rooted positions that are denied, or called theory, or philosophy is an attack. When people have described biblically major portions of truth and others insist on denying that, or actually questioning God's revealed word. I see it as an attack, just as much as Satan asked "has God Said"?

Credibility is when a person offers their own personal idea, that no one else has suggested at any time in Church History, not in any Confession of faith. On these issues Confessional Churches agree on the Cross.

Sure, if they do not deny Biblical definitions which has to take place to deny these teachings.

I see that the poster Martin M, has done a solid job of offering the Historic teaching, and the Current understanding in Churches.

Martin and others have done that day in and day out.

Claims of a formal education are not conclusive, or necessarily true. The truth of such claims without biblical alignment to the truth once delivered to the saints shows a lack of credibility. I can claim to be a master auto mechanic, but if I cannot explain the basics of a car engine, I in turn would wipe away any credibility, no one would take me seriously. In the same way, when posters state things that no one else does. they cannot be a trusted guide.

This might be your stated opinion, but that is all it is. Why call educated and gifted teachers. the religious elite?
Jn.3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

It is, however God for some reason has given Pastors and teachers, to local churches, to preach and to teach the gospel of the Kingdom as we see in Acts 28:
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. He does not say, He just kept saying, Just believe what was written, like I claim to do. He opened the scripture concerning the Kingdom for two years! The says that preaching, and teaching happened.


People have offered you help, you reject it. That is fine, but you stand alone.

yes, It is often attacked by caricatures and strawmen

Again, that is your claim, that we cannot verify. You do not give any evidence of that. Instead you are with those who oppose the se truths. That is your right to do so, but all the Cals, and those who are studying toward the position do not seem to accept your claim, based on what they se you post. These topics are not about, you and what you claim, they are about Jesus and the Cross.

We have no verification of that. That is your claim. Some might question that.

This is yet another claim that distracts from the discussion.

your view.

Yes indeed.

That said, I have seen arguments against Calvinism that were based on stereotypes and misunderstanding. One of these is the "cosmic child abuse argument".

yes, It is often attacked by caricatures and strawmen

Is not when anyone rejects Psa for the atonement they really are reacting to the concept of Jesus enduring the wrath of God for our sake as being "pagan concept? Indeed Cosmic child abuse?"

As have read various authors who used that very terminology when they went against Psa atonement view?

 

[Silverhair]

No, rather he is suggesting that sometimes those who either misunderstood what Calvinism really teaches, or else are very angry/bitter at it can at times go so far other way they embrace doctrines and theology counter to the Cross itself, ending up with a severe misunderstanding of Pauline Justification

So you have just proven that you really do not have good discernment.

Read what he said again but this time without the calvinst filters.

This is just understanding the truth of calvinism 101

"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

I understand that the truth is hard for you to accept but it is for your own good that you step back and take a clear eyed look at what your religion actually teaches.