"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

[KenH]

Do you see what I mean? God could have foreknown them already because of their OT faith.

God's elect have always had the same faith in the finished work of Christ on their behalf, regardless of when they lived.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Also, Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

"Not having received the promises; the things promised, the land of Canaan, the Messiah, and the blessings of the Gospel dispensation; they had the promises of these things, and though they were not fulfilled in their days, they believed they would be fulfilled, and died in the faith of them:

having seen them afar off; the things themselves in the promise; as Abraham saw the going forth of his posterity out of Egypt, after they had been afflicted four hundred years, and saw the day of Christ at a greater distance still.
...
And were persuaded of them, and embraced them; they had a full assurance of faith, that what was promised would be fulfilled; and they took a kind of possession of them before hand, as Abraham did of the land of Canaan, by sojourning in it; as did also Isaac and Jacob; and all of them by faith embraced the Messiah, and dealt with, and laid hold upon his blood, righteousness, sacrifice, and grace, by which they were saved, as New Testament saints are."

- excerpts from John Gill's Bible commentary on Hebrews 11:13

 

[Van]

If we read Deuteronomy 7:7-9 we see the Old Covenant election of Israel is a corporate election of a nation or people or group based on keeping His promise to the forefathers of the people about to enter "the promised land." Were they all elected individually, when the promise was made to Abraham, or only based on the subsequent determination that they loved God and were committed to keep His commandments? This ongoing, under the Old Covenant, election of individuals "formed" the people chosen for His own possession. They did NOT enter the kingdom of His beloved Son when they were chosen under the Old Covenant, they were not called into His marvelous light. They had to wait to be made perfect until Christ died as a ransom for all.

Thus the descendants (seed) of Abraham did not receive the promises of regeneration or entry into heaven until after Christ died.

In summary, 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes the election of Ephesians 1:4 from being our individual election for salvation, because we were chosen individually based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, after we had lived not as a people chosen for His own possession. Referring to the OT Saints,: "All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."

 

[Van]

To briefly return to the thread topic, foreknowledge refers to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. The witnesses knew Paul had been raised as a Pharisee, and could testify to that fact in the present. The manner of Christ's sacrifice had been formulated in the past, the predetermined plan, and was being implemented in the present.

See post #43 for a more detailed analysis supporting this biblically based understanding of the meaning of the Greek words translated as foreknowledge and foreknew.

 

[KenH]

Thus the descendants (seed) of Abraham did not receive the promises of regeneration or entry into heaven until after Christ died.

Absolutely and totally false. The Old Testament saints were not thrown into some "holding cell" for thousands of years and having to wait. It was sure and certain that Christ would be the Surety for those God chose before the world began, and they received the spiritual blessings that Christ was to attain and accomplish, and did attain and accomplish, for God's elect.

 

[Dave...]

First, we do not use the OT to interpret the NT, we use the NT to interpret the OT. It is the context of 1 Peter that applies to understanding the meaning of 1 Peter"s reference to OT citations.

Peter is using an illustration from the Old Covenant to describe our New Covenant election.

 

[Van]

Absolutely and totally false. The Old Testament saints were not thrown into some "holding cell" for thousands of years and having to wait. It was sure and certain that Christ would be the Surety for those God chose before the world began, and they received the spiritual blessings that Christ was to attain and accomplish, and did attain and accomplish, for God's elect.

My view is of course proven by Hebrews 11:39-40. KenH claims the OT saints were not taken to Abraham's bosom, which is where they went according the Luke 16:22. Next KenH claims human individuals were chosen before creation for salvation, which is of course precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. Only after an individual's faith, in the name of Christ, is credited by God as righteousness, does God then transfer the individual into Christ's spiritual body, where they receive the reconciliation, being made alive together with Christ.

 

[Van]

I assume this means you agree that the NT is concealed in the OT, and the mysteries of the OT are revealed in the NT. The concept that the OT provides living parables illustrating the truths revealed in the NT seems be foreign to your study method. God chose the descendants of Abraham corporately, they would be as many as the stars, but were also chosen individually when God determined they loved God and were determined to keep His commands. This illustrates God's corporate election of believers presented in Ephesians 1:4 of those Christ would redeem after His sacrifice. Therefore, 1 Peter 2:9-10 refers to our election for salvation under the New Covenant, as foreshadowed by the election of Israel under the Old Covenant. Christ was chosen individually, Abraham was chosen individually. Christ would redeem believers whose faith is credited as righteousness. Abraham's descendants would be chosen bases on crediting their faith in God as righteousness, becoming then part of His chosen people, but held in Abraham's bosom until Christ provided the means of their reconciliation. Only then were they made perfect and were enrolled in the General Assembly in Heaven. Hebrews 12:23.

The Election of Ephesians 1:4 is therefore corporate, the target group of God's redemption plan for His Redeemer, His Lamb of God. 1 Peter 1:20.
Both of these events occur before the foundation of the world. Those to be redeemed were chosen corporately when God chose His redeemer individually. Thus He chose us in Him...

 

[Dave...]

God's elect have always had the same faith in the finished work of Christ on their behalf, regardless of when they lived
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Also, Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

"Not having received the promises; the things promised, the land of Canaan, the Messiah, and the blessings of the Gospel dispensation; they had the promises of these things, and though they were not fulfilled in their days, they believed they would be fulfilled, and died in the faith of them:

having seen them afar off; the things themselves in the promise; as Abraham saw the going forth of his posterity out of Egypt, after they had been afflicted four hundred years, and saw the day of Christ at a greater distance still.
...
And were persuaded of them, and embraced them; they had a full assurance of faith, that what was promised would be fulfilled; and they took a kind of possession of them before hand, as Abraham did of the land of Canaan, by sojourning in it; as did also Isaac and Jacob; and all of them by faith embraced the Messiah, and dealt with, and laid hold upon his blood, righteousness, sacrifice, and grace, by which they were saved, as New Testament saints are."

- excerpts from John Gill's Bible commentary on Hebrews 11:13

I'm not sure what your reply has to do with what I said.

"Do you see what I mean? God could have foreknown them already because of their OT faith."

They had faith, that was the point. God knew them. Yet they were not indwelt (NT), or had the indwelling (the promises) (Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit), nor were they "in Christ" (Romans 8:9-10). Paul said that "we" were the firstfruits of the Spirit (indwelling) (Romans 8:23). Yet God knew them.

 

[Dave...]

Van, Peter is quoting the Old Testament. The context of the OT statement is about physical Israel. He's using OT language. Applying that to NT truth. He's using OT verses about physical Israel and applying that to NT Spiritual Israel.

First, we do not use the OT to interpret the NT, we use the NT to interpret the OT. It is the context of 1 Peter that applies to understanding the meaning of 1 Peter"s reference to OT citations.

Peter is using an illustration from the Old Covenant to describe our New Covenant election.

 

[Van]

To briefly return to the thread topic, foreknowledge refers to information acquired or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. The witnesses knew Paul had been raised as a Pharisee, and could testify to that fact in the present. The manner of Christ's sacrifice had been formulated in the past, the predetermined plan, and was being implemented in the present.

See post #43 for a more detailed analysis supporting this biblically based understanding of the meaning of the Greek words translated as foreknowledge and foreknew.

In the verse where Jesus says, i never "knew" you, Matthew 7:23, the Greek word translated knew is "ginosko" G1097. The word is used in several different ways. In Matthew 1:25, Joseph never "knew" Mary until Jesus was born. Thus to "know" in this biblical sense is to have sexual relations with someone.

But another meaning is to have an intimate relationship, such as those transferred into Christ have with Christ, and more importantly Christ has with them. This is the meaning of "Knew" in the context of Matthew 7:23. They never were transferred into Christ, they were never "My sheep" they never were His own possession.

That meaning is not the meaning of "ginosko" in the compound word "proginosko" G4267, but the more common meaning of having knowledge of something is in view, and in the compound case, having knowledge of something before hand. An intimate relationship is not in view in Romans 8:29.

 

[Dave...]

I assume this means you agree that the NT is concealed in the OT, and the mysteries of the OT are revealed in the NT. The concept that the OT provides living parables illustrating the truths revealed in the NT seems be foreign to your study method. God chose the descendants of Abraham corporately, they would be as many as the stars, but were also chosen individually when God determined they loved God and were determined to keep His commands. This illustrates God's corporate election of believers presented in Ephesians 1:4 of those Christ would redeem after His sacrifice. Therefore, 1 Peter 2:9-10 refers to our election for salvation under the New Covenant, as foreshadowed by the election of Israel under the Old Covenant. Christ was chosen individually, Abraham was chosen individually. Christ would redeem believers whose faith is credited as righteousness. Abraham's descendants would be chosen bases on crediting their faith in God as righteousness, becoming then part of His chosen people, but held in Abraham's bosom until Christ provided the means of their reconciliation. Only then were they made perfect and were enrolled in the General Assembly in Heaven. Hebrews 12:23.

The Election of Ephesians 1:4 is therefore corporate, the target group of God's redemption plan for His Redeemer, His Lamb of God. 1 Peter 1:20.
Both of these events occur before the foundation of the world. Those to be redeemed were chosen corporately when God chose His redeemer individually. Thus He chose us in Him...

Physical Israel is a OT type of spiritual Israel. Esau is physical Israel. Jacob is spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is elect "in Christ" only. All those in spiritual Israel are "in Christ" as a result of faith and then they become elect with Jesus. Jesus is the One elect. We become elect when we are placed in Him, per Eph. 1:1-14. We are placed in Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of faith always (Eph. 1:13-14). With the Holy Spirit indwelling we are In Christ, without the indwelling we are not in Christ (Romans 8:9-10). Paul said "we" are the first fruits of the Spirit, meaning the firstfruits of the indwelling Romans 8:23), the baptism with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised when He was lifted up, the promise of the Father, which is part of the promises that those in Hebrews died having not received. They were not in Christ, thus they were not elect except by promise until Pentecost, when they were placed into Christ. All they had was a promise that was to come. They were all still in Adam, yet God knew them already. All that the Father gives me I shall not lose one of them. The Sheep. This is who Romans 8:29 is speaking of. These were already known by God, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son (starts when places in Him), those He called with the Gospel message....

 

[Van]

What I said:
God chose the descendants of Abraham corporately, they would be as many as the stars, but were also chosen individually when God determined they loved God and were determined to keep His commands. This illustrates God's corporate election of believers presented in Ephesians 1:4 of those Christ would redeem after His sacrifice. Therefore, 1 Peter 2:9-10 refers to our election for salvation under the New Covenant, as foreshadowed by the election of Israel under the Old Covenant. Post 67.

What you said I said, post 69:
Peter is using an illustration from the Old Covenant to describe our New Covenant election.

Thus an interpretation of the OT based on the revelation presented in the NT.

 

[Van]

Physical Israel is a OT type of spiritual Israel. Esau is physical Israel. Jacob is spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is elect "in Christ" only. All those in spiritual Israel are "in Christ" as a result of faith and then they become elect with Jesus. Jesus is the One elect. We become elect when we are placed in Him, per Eph. 1:1-14. We are placed in Him when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of faith always (Eph. 1:13-14). With the Holy Spirit indwelling we are In Christ, without the indwelling we are not in Christ (Romans 8:9-10). Paul said "we" are the first fruits of the Spirit, meaning the firstfruits of the indwelling Romans 8:23), the baptism with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised when He was lifted up, the promise of the Father, which is part of the promises that those in Hebrews died having not received. They were not in Christ, thus they were not elect except by promise until Pentecost, when they were placed into Christ. All they had was a promise that was to come. They were all still in Adam, yet God knew them already. All that the Father gives me I shall not lose one of them. The Sheep. This is who Romans 8:29 is speaking of. These were already known by God, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son (starts when places in Him), those He called with the Gospel message....

All those in Christ now, after Christ's sacrifice were not in Christ before Christ's sacrifice. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until they could be made perfect.

We receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we are transferred into Christ, thus we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 We are "in Him" after hearing the gospel and believing, we were then sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Yes, all those in Christ, having been called into His marvelous light, are then sealed in Christ. If you are not indwelt, you have not been sealed in Christ.

Now here is the bone of contention, "...yet God "knew" them already." The father had not "given" the OT saints to Christ before Christ's sacrifice, that is why they had to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect after His sacrifice.

Those God foreknew. Romans 8:29 were the target group of His redemption plan, which also including choosing those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. And these that God planned for beforehand, He also planned for them to be conformed to the image of Christ as born anew creations.

Next, the shift in timing does not seem part of your understanding. His redemption plan was formulated Before the foundation of the world, but its implementation did not start until after (or from) the foundation of the world. That implementation started when God credited the faith as righteousness of the first of the fallen humans. And it is on going to this day, as God is still reconciling individuals by transferring them out of the realm of darkness and into the Kingdom of His Beloved Son.

 

[Van]

No one's name was written in the Lamb's book of life until after the foundation of the world, thus the implementation of God's redemption plan did not begin until after or since the foundation of the world. Thus we have the plan formulated before the foundation, as Christ was known as the Lamb of God, and we were chosen corporately when Christ was chosen individually, thus we were chosen in Him...before the foundation of the world as the target group of the plan.

 

[KenH]

et they were not indwelt

Do you mean by the Holy Spirit? In that case, yes, they were.

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence;
And take not thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:11 Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

 

[KenH]

My view is of course proven by Hebrews 11:39-40.

received not the promise; not that they did not receive the promise of the land of Canaan, for so did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, &c. nor that they did not receive the promise of deliverance and victory, for so did Joshua, the Judges, and others; or that they did not receive the promise of eternal life, for that they all did; but the promise of the Messiah, that is, the Messiah promised: for they had the promise, but not the thing; who is called "the Promise", emphatically, because he is the first and grand promise; and because in him all the promises centre, and are yea, and amen: him the Old Testament saints received not; they, greatly desired to see him in the flesh; they saw him by faith; they believed in him, and rejoiced in the expectation of his coming; but he was not exhibited to them incarnate. Now since these saints so strongly believed, and so cheerfully suffered before Christ came; the apostle's argument is, that much more should the saints now, since Christ is come, and the promises received, go on believing in him, and readily suffering for his sake.

that they without us should not be made perfect; the Old Testament saints are perfectly justified, perfectly sanctified, and perfectly glorified; but their perfection was not by the law, which made nothing perfect, but by Christ, and through his sacrifice, blood, and righteousness; and so were not made perfect without us; since their sins and ours are expiated together by the same sacrifice; their persons and ours justified together by the same righteousness; they and we make up but one church, and general assembly.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Hebrews 11:39-40

KenH claims the OT saints were not taken to Abraham's bosom, which is where they went according the Luke 16:22.

Abraham's bosom is the same as Heaven.

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham.
...
The ascension of Christ is expressed by a being "carried up into heaven", Luke 24:51 and here he is entered, and has been received, and will be retained, until the time of the restitution of all things; here he is glorified in human nature, sits at the right hand of God, and appears in his presence, on the behalf of his people; and indeed, the ends of his going there, were to receive gifts for them, to be their advocate and intercessor, to take possession of heaven in their name, and prepare that for them, and them for that; and hither "he was carried by angels"...and this agrees with the notions of the Jews, that when good men die, their souls are immediately received by angels, and taken under their care, and carried to heaven.

- excerpt from John Gill's commentary on Luke 16:22

Next KenH claims human individuals were chosen before creation for salvation, which is of course precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10.

God did choose His elect before creation.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

[Dave...]

All those in Christ now, after Christ's sacrifice were not in Christ before Christ's sacrifice. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom, until they could be made perfect.

We receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we are transferred into Christ, thus we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13 We are "in Him" after hearing the gospel and believing, we were then sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Yes, all those in Christ, having been called into His marvelous light, are then sealed in Christ. If you are not indwelt, you have not been sealed in Christ.

Now here is the bone of contention, "...yet God "knew" them already." The father had not "given" the OT saints to Christ before Christ's sacrifice, that is why they had to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect after His sacrifice.

Exactly. Up to this point I agree. Now, understanding this, we look at Romans 8:29.

Those God foreknew. Romans 8:29 were the target group of His redemption plan, which also including choosing those whose faith in His Redeemer would be credited as righteousness. And these that God planned for beforehand, He also planned for them to be conformed to the image of Christ as born anew creations.

It's not a plan that He foreknew in Romans 8:29, it's a people. Everything was planned from an eternal decree. That's a given. But the point of Romans 8:29 is Whom He foreknew. This is where your giving yourself a slight of hand and not realizing it.

Next, the shift in timing does not seem part of your understanding. His redemption plan was formulated Before the foundation of the world, but its implementation did not start until after (or from) the foundation of the world. That implementation started when God credited the faith as righteousness of the first of the fallen humans. And it is on going to this day, as God is still reconciling individuals by transferring them out of the realm of darkness and into the Kingdom of His Beloved Son.

God can eternally decree from the foundations of the world that OT believers who came to faith (allowed), are then predestined (caused) to come to faith in Christ Jesus, and that would be a people whom God knows, who are predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness, called, elect in Christ, when they are in Christ, all from an eternal decree. An eternal decree does not negate that these could be OT believers, known, who are not in Christ, and are predestined to be in Christ. OT believers physically dead, died having not received those promises. They got those promises in Abrahams bosom when Christ descended, and ascended with Christ to be with the Father in the third heaven. OT believers still living who already trusted in Christ and where given the right to become children of God, appointed to eternal life (predestined), and received those promises at Pentecost, first the Jews, then the Gentiles. Then the OT believers still living after the cross that had not yet heard and/or submitted to the Gospel, did hear the Gospel and believed thus the transition. Lydia, Cornelius, acts 19 OT believers, etc. When all those heard the Gospel and believed, they were accompanied by the same signs and wonders. After all that the Father gave to the Son had received their Promises by way of the indwelling, and had been placed into Christ, the transition was over and everyone who believed at that point forward receives the Holy Spirit instantly when they come to Christ in Faith. It's still the baptism/placing into [Christ] with the Holy Spirit as a result of faith that believers experience today. Romans 8:29 was speaking of a specific people in a transition period, and should not be used away from that context as the norm for today. And also should not be assumed that "known" was from the foundations of the world in an eternal decree. It was decreed eternally, but that's not the context of the statement. Whom He foreknew [from the foundations of the world], He predestined is taking that statement out of it's context and smashing Calvinism into it for no other reason other than TULIP requires it. I gave the context, and a very plausible interpretation of that passage based on that context. It fits. You of all people should be able to see that, as the biggest obstacle that I have with people is that they refuse to see the transition. You see the transition, Van, and understand Abrahams bosom. You should see that Calvinism's interpretation of that passage is interpreting it by TULIP, not the Biblical context.

 

[Dave...]

Do you mean by the Holy Spirit? In that case, yes, they were.

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence;
And take not thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:11 Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

That's assumed indwelling.... upon...