Divine Justice

[JonC]

@Charlie24

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am at work for another 7 hours with nothing going on (took some OT).

You made a comment:

"I see no sin goes unpunished"

Where does you get the idea that no sin goes unpunished?

 

[Silverhair]

There is nothing here that I disagree with (suprized?).

I think the difference between our views is not in what needed to be done to reconcile man to God.

I think we both agree that at Judgment those who are saved have been made new creations, they have been "refined", the "old man" no longer exists and man is completely conformed into the image of Christ. I think we agree here because we have touched on this being what we are now predestined to become.

So the actual reconciliation of man has nothing to do with Jesus suffering punishment for our sins instead of us. We woukd be reconciled simply by being made into Christ's image.

This also has nothing to do with God judging sinners. The sinner (this "old man") will not exist at Judgment for those who believe. It does not matter to that "new creation" (this brother of Christ) if the sins of the "old man. he was is punished or not.


I think the difference may be what demands the law makes upon God.

Is God bound by the law in such a way that He must redeem men through the law ? I say "no .
Why? Because the law is a reflection of God's nature, but so is grace. These two do not violate one another, even though Scripture presents them differently.

NOTE - I am not saying God violates the law, only that God fulfills the requirements of the law in a means other than through the law itself (another act of creation).

The bible tells us God redeems man through grace. That is how I see it.

 

[JonC]

The bible tells us God redeems man through grace. That is how I see it.

That is how I see it as well.

 

[JonC]

@Charlie24

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am at work for another 7 hours with nothing going on (took some OT).

You made a comment:

"I see no sin goes unpunished"

Where does you get the idea that no sin goes unpunished?

@Charlie24

I should have clarified why the question.

There are several philosophies of justice we may hold. You are right that the one we hold determines how we view justice.

Mine does not change how I view Scripture because justice is not the overarching theme I see in redemption. But if no sin can go unpunished then you are correct that justice would demand punishment from God regardless of the actual person being punished. It woukd be akin to a debt that the Judge has to collect.

The Hebrew idea of justice (tzedek) is a bit different. Sins do not have to be punished at all, but the ooutcome has to reconcile the situation. This is why you see, in the OT, the Jews crying out for justice so many times. It is a restoration.

But the Western concept of justice is a bit different. We now struggle between philosophies of justice. For a time we adopted Renaissance Humanism (the philosophy Calvin used when developing Penal Substitution). This was a justice uninterested in the parties involved (justice independent of the victim or the criminal). Every crime had to be punished. Period.

We are no longer exactly at that point. Now other considerations factor in. But that philosophy is the cornerstone of our judicial philosophy (it was a revival of sorts, bringing the Stoic and Roman systems together to form an objective system).

So, if Renaissance Humanistic judicial philosophy is the type of justice Scrioture uses then I have to admit that you are correct. Divine Justice would demand of God punishment.

BUT if Scripture was written with the Hebrew understanding of justice in mind (tzedek) then I am more likely correct and God can be just not to punish the sins of those He re-creates and conforms into the image of Christ (God can forgive sins).

I think this is our main difference.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am at work for another 7 hours with nothing going on (took some OT).

You made a comment:

"I see no sin goes unpunished"

Where does you get the idea that no sin goes unpunished?

Well, it may not be acceptable for you, Jon, and that's ok with me, I'm not hard to get along with.

For the saved,

Heb. 9:28

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Christ bears the sin, past, present, and future of the saved.

For the unsaved,

Prov. 11:21

"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered."

The unsaved will be punished for their sin, but the sins of the righteous were borne by Christ by grace through faith.

 

[Charlie24]

Well, it may not be acceptable for you, Jon, and that's ok with me, I'm not hard to get along with.

For the saved,

Heb. 9:28

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Christ bears the sin, past, present, and future of the saved.

For the unsaved,

Prov. 11:21

"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered."

The unsaved will be punished for their sin, but the sins of the righteous were borne by Christ by grace through faith.

There are more verses I didn't care to look up but can if you like.

From this I gather the understanding that the atonement will only benefit those who choose to follow Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

There are more verses I didn't care to look up but can if you like.

From this I gather the understanding that the atonement will only benefit those who choose to follow Christ.

One last thing before I hit the sack, and forget it.

Christ at His trial before Pilate said, he who delivered me hath the greater sin.

I believe this to be Christ teaching degrees of sin.

If degrees of sin, then degrees of punishment.

I believe the punishment of the unsaved is according to the degree of sin.

 

[JonC]

Well, it may not be acceptable for you, Jon, and that's ok with me, I'm not hard to get along with.

For the saved,

Heb. 9:28

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Christ bears the sin, past, present, and future of the saved.

For the unsaved,

Prov. 11:21

"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered."

The unsaved will be punished for their sin, but the sins of the righteous were borne by Christ by grace through faith.

I agree with the passages you offer. And yes, the unsaved will be punished.

I think of Judgment Day kinda like a court with only two types of people.

One group are the wicked, and they have stored up wrath for themselves for this day of wrath.

But the other group are the saved. These are now, standing begore God, made in the image of Christ. And they will be justified.


I was just wondering why you believed that sins must be punished.

I do not share that idea of justice.

Calvin insisted that every crime must be punished, that the role of the judge is to avenge the law.
I believe he was wrong.

I believe that the role of a judge is restoration - to restore justice - whether by punishment or rehabilitation. In terms of God, to restore justice whether by punishment (casting out the wicked) or by transforming the wicked into One who is righteous.

In the end we hold to the same result- those who stand before God at Judgment in Christ are justified and the wicked are condemned.


When I read all of the passages talking about God forgiving sins based on Christ Himself, the sinner repenting and turning from evil to God, this re-birth, I just do not see what punishing every sin adds to redemption.

I have about 3 more hours and I get to go to bed.

 

[JesusFan]

Sh, What you are missing is the fact that God can forget about our sins, because Jesus as the Lamb of God took the penalty we rightly deserved, and fully made a complete atonement for those sins. As propitiation the WRATH DUE US, WAS TURNRED AWAY.

the soul that sins must die, so in JonC theology, they do not need to die? They skip and avoid judgement period?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@JonC as you have seen from the responses the calvinisst view requires punishment for sins whereas the bible points to forgiveness of sins.

Those that trust in God are forgiven,
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,...

Isa 45:22 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;...

No need for Christ to suffer and die then. He just had to show up so that people could believe in Him.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree with the passages you offer. And yes, the unsaved will be punished.

I think of Judgment Day kinda like a court with only two types of people.

One group are the wicked, and they have stored up wrath for themselves for this day of wrath.

But the other group are the saved. These are now, standing begore God, made in the image of Christ. And they will be justified.


I was just wondering why you believed that sins must be punished.

I do not share that idea of justice.

Calvin insisted that every crime must be punished, that the role of the judge is to avenge the law.
I believe he was wrong.

I believe that the role of a judge is restoration - to restore justice - whether by punishment or rehabilitation. In terms of God, to restore justice whether by punishment (casting out the wicked) or by transforming the wicked into One who is righteous.

In the end we hold to the same result- those who stand before God at Judgment in Christ are justified and the wicked are condemned.


When I read all of the passages talking about God forgiving sins based on Christ Himself, the sinner repenting and turning from evil to God, this re-birth, I just do not see what punishing every sin adds to redemption.

I have about 3 more hours and I get to go to bed.

Due to breakign His law in any way is heaping upon us deserved wrath and condemnation and a sin debt that someone must atone for

 

[JesusFan]

No need for Christ then.

He does not have a basis for God to be able to freely justify them and remain Holy though , as God cannot just tell them "thanks for repenting and accepting jesus, so all of that stored up earned wrath just disappeared"

 

[Silverhair]

No need for Christ to suffer and die then. He just had to show up so that people could believe in Him.

Don't believe the bible?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Don't believe the bible?

I was wondering if you did.

 

[JonC]

No need for Christ to suffer and die then. He just had to show up so that people could believe in Him.

Why would you come to that conclusion?
God was sways here so people could believe in Him. They didn't.


I say Christ had to die in order to be one of us, because He bore our sin, He came under the curse abd the bondage of sin and death, He had to suffer under this evil in order to be victorious over this evil.

You say that means Christ did not have to die.


Christ bore our sins, came under the bondage of sin and death in order to free us from its bonds.
His death is absolutely necessary.
It is through His death that mankind is reconciled to God (He had to be made as one of the brethern).
And having suffered and died God vindicated Him, giving Him a name above every name.
He became a life giving spirit.


What I am saying is that your theory does not need the criss in terms of redemotion. It needs God to meet what the law demands of Him. Why? Because the "old man" is nonexistent at Judgment. The deeds of the "old man" do not matter. The deeds of the "new creation" "conformed into the image of Christ" do matter.

BUT even here your theory is foolish.

Human actions cannot be taken from the man that committed the action.
The fact that the man committed the action cannot change.

You say that God took our actions from us and put them on Christ, punishing our actions put on Him instead of punishing us.

But these actions are not material things.

And if God simply pretended that Jesus did those actions this still does not make the person who sinned "not wicked".


You are not a stupid person. I do not belueve that you swallowed the elephant of your theory in one gulp. You simply were led, step by step, into the philosophy and jave necer stepped back to see the whole and how far you have drifted.


As proof, you have repeatedly denied that Christ's death was necessary to reconcile man to God, to free man from the bondage of sin and death.

You even deny that in the post quoted above.

I say Christ had to die in order to be one of us, because He bore our sin, He came under the curse abd the bondage of sin and death, He had to suffer under this evil in order to be victorious over this evil.

You say that means Christ did not have to die.

 

[JonC]

Don't believe the bible?

Apparently not

@Martin Marprelate and I have had this discussion before.

I have repeatedly said Christ had to die because He bore our sins, He came under the bondage of sin and death, and He freed us from this bondage. I even pointed out that I believe it significant that Jrsus did not die under the Law but instead the secular power of that time (for the crime the Jews condemned Christ the Law required stoning and then the body hung on a tree). Crucifixion on a wooden cross unified the World against Him. That part is just my opinion.

@Martin Marprelate reads that and concludes that this means Jesus did not have to die.


I do not know if he is blinded to Scripture or merely so concerned he cannot defend his theories that he is simoly throwing spaghetti on the wall ito obscure that fact.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I say

I was addressing @Silverhair. Dealing with you on one thread is quite burden enough for me.

 

[Brightfame52]

I

I have repeatedly said Christ had to die because He bore our sins, He came under the bondage of sin and death, and He freed us from this bondage.

Bondage of sin? He came under the wages of sin, death. Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He freed the elect from this death, He abolished death 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Please provide the scriptures that says He came under the bondage of sin

 

[JonC]

I was addressing @Silverhair. Dealing with you on one thread is quite burden enough for me.

I was not replying to you for your benefit.

 

[JonC]

Bondage of sin? He came under the wages of sin, death. Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He freed the elect from this death, He abolished death 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Please provide the scriptures that says He came under the bondage of sin

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


The difference is I believe Christ shared in our humanity so that by his death would break the power of Satan (Satan holds the power of death). And having disarmed these powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

You view the cross very differently - as God forgiving sins by taking our actions and punishing them on Christ. So where I view Christ's death as being under the power of the Devil by the will of God, you view God as exercising the power of death as a punishment.

Where I see death as a power of Satan you see death as the power of God. We both see Christ as suffering this death, but disagree on where this came from.