Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

[Alan Dale Gross]

So when did God make Christ a surety in the everlasting covenant of Grace for the sins and condemnation of the elect? When was He responsible for their sins?

in the everlasting covenant of Grace

In Eternity Past.

"The Council before treated of, is the basis and foundation of the Covenant of Grace, and both relate to the same thing, and in which the same Persons are concerned.

"In the former (the Eternal Council) things were contrived, planned, and advised; in the latter (The Council of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace) fixed and settled.

"The Covenant of Grace is a Compact or Agreement made from all Eternity Past among the Divine Persons, more especially between the Father and the Son, concerning the Salvation of the Elect.

"For the better understanding these Federal Transactions between them, before the world was, when there were no creatures, neither Angels nor men in being; and which lay the foundation of all the Grace and Glory, comfort and happiness, of the saints in Time and to Eternity..."

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 7

 

[JonC]

Many will reject this "Covenant of Grace" for a fairly obvious reason. The members of the Godhead do not need a covenant (the idea that there is a covenantal relationship between the Persons of the Trinity would be considered a type of heresy as it degrades the divine nature).

My reason for rejecting shoukd be obvious....it ain't in the Bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Covenant of Grace is a Compact or Agreement made from all Eternity Past among the Divine Persons, more especially between the Father and the Son, concerning the Salvation of the Elect.

Okay so how could the elect be born with their condemnation charged to them since Christ was held responsible for it by compact agreement from eternity past?

 

[Brightfame52]

Many will reject this "Covenant of Grace" for a fairly obvious reason

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

 

[Brightfame52]

In Eternity Past.

See when we were born dead in sin Christ was already surety and responsible for our condemnation, as soon as it occurred in Adam, God looked to Christ to satisfy Justice for it. Do you believe this?

 

[JonC]

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

Why would God's covenant with Abraham would be the reason many believe the Father and Son entered into a covenant in eternity past?

I take it you are referencing Gen 17:7 - I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

This was between God and Abraham and Abraham's Seed (Christ incarnate). But how do those people work backwards to "eternity past"?

What passages do they use to support this "covenant"?

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would God's covenant with Abraham would be the reason many believe the Father and Son entered into a covenant in eternity past?

I take it you are referencing Gen 17:7 - I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

This was between God and Abraham and Abraham's Seed (Christ incarnate). But how do those people work backwards to "eternity past"?

What passages do they use to support this "covenant"?

I don't know what in the world you talking about. You rarely make any sense to me, no disrespect

 

[JonC]

I don't know what in the world you talking about. You rarely make any sense to me, no disrespect

I said that many would reject the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism

You replied:

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

I posted the everlasting Covenant from Scripture and asked you why that would be the cause for many accepting the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism.

I do not see what is so difficult about the question.

Exactly what part of the question did you not understand?

Let me know and I will try to ask it differently.

 

[Brightfame52]

I said that many would reject the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism

You replied:



I posted the everlasting Covenant from Scripture and asked you why that would be the cause for many accepting the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism.

I do not see what is so difficult about the question.

Exactly what part of the question did you not understand?

Let me know and I will try to ask it differently.

Read post 121 and follow the links @Alan Dale Gross

 

[JonC]

Read post 121 and follow the links @Alan Dale Gross

Absolutely not. I like Alan, but I am not interested in reading his links.

I thought that you meant there was something those guys read in Scripture (in that everlasting covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant).

 

[Silverhair]

No such thing as the means of reconciliation, Christ death actually reconciled sinners He died for unto God. Rom 5:10

Well it would seem that you and Dave G, Martin Marprelate and Zaatar71 are all universalist's according to your comment.

Christ Died for
Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

1Jn_2:1-2 propitiation for the whole world

1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers

Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly

Rom_5:8 while we were still sinners

The means of reconciliation

Rom_5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2Co_5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co_5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Looks like you were wrong twice in one post BF.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Okay so how could the elect be born with their condemnation charged to them since Christ was held responsible for it by compact agreement from eternity past?

The Elect were born Spiritually Dead, "in trespasses and sins", and were "the children of Wrath even as others", while in their Naturally Born State, as children of Adam. The souls of the Elect were 'generated' as Creations of God in their Natural (first) Birth, and had to be Spiritually "Quickened", of course, by the 'Regeneration' Power of God, in their New (second) Birth, from Above.

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath He Quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

And we would have remained in that Natural lost condition, condemned in unbelief, "But God", had, from Eternity Past, "Provided a Lamb."

Jesus was from Eternity Past Decreed by God as,
"The LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

"And all that dwell upon the Earth shall Worship him (the Beast),
whose names are not Written in the Book of Life
of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World," Revelation 3:8.

Interestingly enough, the Saving Efficacy of Jesus' Accomplishment in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection from the Dead, was made AFFECTUAL, in its entirety, before His actual death on the cross.

This we know, because, as the Old Testament saints looked forward to The Promised Messiah, they were Saved every bit the same way as we are, today, only with for example, less clarity and overall Enlightenment as to the details than what we enjoy now that it has been Revealed to us in the New Testament.

In this post, the three comments below are made with other thoughts there; Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

When Jesus was Appointed as the Surity for God's Elect, in Eternity Past, the Guilt of the Elects' sins were Imputed to Jesus, and their Guilt was then Charged to Jesus' Account, with regard to Him Becoming Responsible for them. By that is meant that if the Elect were ever to be able to be Credited with the sinless Righteousness God Required for them to not otherwise be Condemned, there was Restitution, in the form of a Payment that had to be Made.

That Guilt would NOT Go Unpunished.

And this all Laid the Foundation of Jesus Making Satisfaction for sin, in Due Time, when that very Payment was Exacted from Him on the Cross.

Jesus Bore our Punishment, in our Stead, or Place.

And, although Jesus' Power to Save was Effectual prior to the Cross, that actual Event did have to be Carried Out, in Time.

In the same way, the Plan and Purpose for God's Elect to be Saved had been Agreed upon by the Triune Godhead, in their Eternal Council of The Covenant of Grace, but had to be Carried Out at the Time of their personal Salvation Experience.

First:

After all, When did the Suffering Jesus Experienced Originate as its Cause?

As early as the Council of Peace was Held, and the above Method
was Concerted and Agreed to, by Triune Godhead,
because, that is when Christ became a Surety for His people,

that is when (Eternity Past) the Elects' sins were Imputed to Jesus,
with regard to Him then Becoming Responsible for them;
and this all Laid the Foundation of His Making Satisfaction for sin, in Due Time on the Cross."

Notes & comments adapted from: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 6, Chapter 5

Second:

The Determination of Jesus Making Satisfaction for sin was, of course,
not merely part of Jesus' Experience at the Time of His Sufferings and Death, although it was at that Time when God Openly and Manifestly "Laid upon Him", or Made to Meet on Him, as sin was being Placed on Jesus Imputatively where we read, "the Iniquity of us all", of all the Lord's people,
"Surely He Took Up our Infirmities and Carried our sorrows,
yet we considered Him Stricken by God, Smitten by Him, and Afflicted."

When, by The Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God
Jesus "was Pierced for our Transgressions, He was Crushed for our Iniquities; the Punishment that Brought us Peace was upon him, and by His Wounds we are Healed", when "the Chastisement of their Peace was on Him"; or the Punishment of their sin was Inflicted on Jesus,
when He Suffered their Guilt for theirs sins, to Make Peace for them;

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

See when we were born dead in sin Christ was already surety and responsible for our condemnation, as soon as it occurred in Adam, God looked to Christ to satisfy Justice for it.

When we personally as individuals, were born dead in sin, Jesus had not only been our Surity, Responsible for Suffering the Punishment that our Guilt deserved for sinning against the Thrice Holy, Eternal, and Infinitely Perfect, Creator God of the Universe, but Jesus had already done so, as we know.

We're saying that God Looked to Jesus, in Eternity Past, and that that is when "God Will Provide Himself a Lamb", Genesis 22:8.

When?

"the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World", Revelation 13:8.

Do you believe this?

I believe, in my Father's House are many Mansions, where Jesus has Gone to Prepare a Place for His Elect and if it were not so, He would have told us, and that was by The Determinant Council and Foreknowledge of God, the same as Jesus' Crucifixion, and that both of those things were Planned and Agreed upon from Eternity Past.

Why? Because, God could not just Create a 'being' like the Elect Angels, who were Confirmed in their sinless State, or some robot-like creature to Commune with Him in Heaven Forever, so He Knew that the 'being' He Created to spend Eternity in Heaven Worshiping Him, would have to be Made Mutable, with the ability to change from Obeying His Soveriegn Commands, to disobeying them.

And, inevitably, that Created 'being' that He Made Mutable, whether it was Adam, or if it had been you or I, eventually changed from Obeying Him, and that cast that 'being', and the entire Human Race as it turned out, into a Condemned State of sin.

Then, once His Created 'being' was Condemned, there would be no way for those 'beings' to enjoy the Pleasures of Heaven with Them, apart from Him having a Plan in Place, from Eternity Past, to Make Provision for those souls of His Choosing, to be Granted Forgiveness of their sins.

Thus, we have seen that The Eternal Covenant of Grace for the Absolute Perfect Accomplishment of the Salvation of those God Chose, "according to the Good Pleasure of His Own Will" AND "the Riches of His Grace", as we see in Ephesians 1:

3; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath Blessed us with all Spiritual Blessings in Heavenly Places in Christ:

4; "According as He hath Chosen us in Him before the Foundation of the World, that we should be Holy and without Blame before Him in Love:

5; "Having Predestinated us unto the Adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the Good Pleasure of His Will,

6; "To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, wherein He hath Made us Accepted in the Beloved.

7; "In Whom we have Redemption through His Blood, the Forgiveness of sins, according to the Riches of His Grace;"

And, as we know, if this could have been Accomplished any other way, God would not have Sent His Son to be Executed and Die the Cruel, Lingering Death of Crucifixion.

But He did.

Why? was this "the Good Pleasure of His Own Will"?

There was no other way for this Prayer of Jesus to be Answered.

In John 17:24; "Father, I Will that they also, whom Thou hast Given Me, be with Me where I Am; that they may Behold My Glory, which Thou hast Given Me: for Thou Lovedst Me before the Foundation of the World."

And who else, again, did God Love, besides Jesus?

"The LORD hath Appeared of Old* unto me, saying, Yea, I have Loved thee with an Everlasting Love: therefore with Lovingkindness have I Drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3.

*or 'from Everlasting', the same as His Love.

"Jacob, have I Loved", Romans 9:13

That is the only way for God to have a 'being' Beholding the Glory of His Son and BE WITH JESUS WHERE HE IS, FOREVER, to share with Them the Complacency and Delight The Triune Godhead has had, FOREVER.

"that they also...be with Me Where I Am."