Did Jesus suffer God's wrath instead of us?

[Alan Dale Gross]

So when did God make Christ a surety in the everlasting covenant of Grace for the sins and condemnation of the elect? When was He responsible for their sins?

in the everlasting covenant of Grace

In Eternity Past.

"The Council before treated of, is the basis and foundation of the Covenant of Grace, and both relate to the same thing, and in which the same Persons are concerned.

"In the former (the Eternal Council) things were contrived, planned, and advised; in the latter (The Council of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace) fixed and settled.

"The Covenant of Grace is a Compact or Agreement made from all Eternity Past among the Divine Persons, more especially between the Father and the Son, concerning the Salvation of the Elect.

"For the better understanding these Federal Transactions between them, before the world was, when there were no creatures, neither Angels nor men in being; and which lay the foundation of all the Grace and Glory, comfort and happiness, of the saints in Time and to Eternity..."

From: His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 7

 

[JonC]

Many will reject this "Covenant of Grace" for a fairly obvious reason. The members of the Godhead do not need a covenant (the idea that there is a covenantal relationship between the Persons of the Trinity would be considered a type of heresy as it degrades the divine nature).

My reason for rejecting shoukd be obvious....it ain't in the Bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Covenant of Grace is a Compact or Agreement made from all Eternity Past among the Divine Persons, more especially between the Father and the Son, concerning the Salvation of the Elect.

Okay so how could the elect be born with their condemnation charged to them since Christ was held responsible for it by compact agreement from eternity past?

 

[Brightfame52]

Many will reject this "Covenant of Grace" for a fairly obvious reason

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

 

[Brightfame52]

In Eternity Past.

See when we were born dead in sin Christ was already surety and responsible for our condemnation, as soon as it occurred in Adam, God looked to Christ to satisfy Justice for it. Do you believe this?

 

[JonC]

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

Why would God's covenant with Abraham would be the reason many believe the Father and Son entered into a covenant in eternity past?

I take it you are referencing Gen 17:7 - I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

This was between God and Abraham and Abraham's Seed (Christ incarnate). But how do those people work backwards to "eternity past"?

What passages do they use to support this "covenant"?

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would God's covenant with Abraham would be the reason many believe the Father and Son entered into a covenant in eternity past?

I take it you are referencing Gen 17:7 - I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

This was between God and Abraham and Abraham's Seed (Christ incarnate). But how do those people work backwards to "eternity past"?

What passages do they use to support this "covenant"?

I don't know what in the world you talking about. You rarely make any sense to me, no disrespect

 

[JonC]

I don't know what in the world you talking about. You rarely make any sense to me, no disrespect

I said that many would reject the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism

You replied:

And many will believe it because of the everlasting Covenant that's in Scripture

I posted the everlasting Covenant from Scripture and asked you why that would be the cause for many accepting the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism.

I do not see what is so difficult about the question.

Exactly what part of the question did you not understand?

Let me know and I will try to ask it differently.

 

[Brightfame52]

I said that many would reject the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism

You replied:



I posted the everlasting Covenant from Scripture and asked you why that would be the cause for many accepting the "Covenant of Grace" as defined by Calvinism.

I do not see what is so difficult about the question.

Exactly what part of the question did you not understand?

Let me know and I will try to ask it differently.

Read post 121 and follow the links @Alan Dale Gross

 

[JonC]

Read post 121 and follow the links @Alan Dale Gross

Absolutely not. I like Alan, but I am not interested in reading his links.

I thought that you meant there was something those guys read in Scripture (in that everlasting covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant).

 

[Silverhair]

No such thing as the means of reconciliation, Christ death actually reconciled sinners He died for unto God. Rom 5:10

Well it would seem that you and Dave G, Martin Marprelate and Zaatar71 are all universalist's according to your comment.

Christ Died for
Heb_2:9 should taste death for every man

1Jn_2:1-2 propitiation for the whole world

1Ti_2:5-6 gave Himself a ransom for all

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of believers

Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly

Rom_5:8 while we were still sinners

The means of reconciliation

Rom_5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2Co_5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co_5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Looks like you were wrong twice in one post BF.