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The Eternal Covenant of Grace.

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
These links refer to a substantial amount of information regarding The Eternal Covenant of Grace, of which the 'TULIP' teachings of the Doctrines of Grace are just a beginning, and are assumed (otherwise, they may be of little use, and all of these types of Glorious Revelations from God in His Word will remain hidden).

"My Father Worketh hitherto, and I Work", John 5:17

A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity by John Gill
Doctrinal Divinity~Book II
THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD.

Chapter 1: Of the Internal Acts of God, and of his Decrees in general.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
These links refer to a substantial amount of information regarding The Eternal Covenant of Grace, of which the 'TULIP' teachings of the Doctrines of Grace are just a beginning, and are assumed (otherwise, they may be of little use, and all of these types of Glorious Revelations from God in His Word will remain hidden).

"My Father Worketh hitherto, and I Work", John 5:17

A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity by John Gill
Doctrinal Divinity~Book II
THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD.

Chapter 1: Of the Internal Acts of God, and of his Decrees in general.

The teachings of Mr. Gill is a minority view of the Scripture among the Baptists.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Who says that?
What if those Baptists you speak of are grossly ignorant of the scriptures?
Why is their opinion important at all, if they cannot refute his teachings as scriptural?

Ok, if you're into Hyper-Calvinism.

What if John Gill was grossly ignorant of Scripture?
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Ok, if you're into Hyper-Calvinism.

What if John Gill was grossly ignorant of Scripture?
Show it scripturally.....quote him, and offer your correction
Have you ever read John Gill?
The topic offered was dealing with the Covenant of grace.
Show how his view of the Covenant is off!

What is your understanding of the Covenant of grace?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Show it scripturally.....quote him, and offer your correction
Have you ever read John Gill?
The topic offered was dealing with the Covenant of grace.
Show how his view of the Covenant is off!

What is your understanding of the Covenant of grace?

I bet I've read more John Gill than you have!

The same question can be turned to you when a different interpretation is taken from the same Scripture.

My point is that John Gill leans toward Hyper-Calvinism, the extremes of that belief.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I bet I've read more John Gill than you have!

The same question can be turned to you when a different interpretation is taken from the same Scripture.

My point is that John Gill leans toward Hyper-Calvinism, the extremes of that belief.
What is your definition of a hyper Calvinist?
What is your view of the Covenant Redemption?
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I bet I've read more John Gill than you have!

The same question can be turned to you when a different interpretation is taken from the same Scripture.

My point is that John Gill leans toward Hyper-Calvinism, the extremes of that belief.
5 Though offering an interesting account of the development of hyper-Calvinism, Peter Toon associates Gill with hyper-Calvinism primarily because of Gill's personal relationships with hyper-Calvinist leaders, not his theology. . Many surveys of Baptist history connect Gill with hyper-Calvinism due to an alleged supralapsarianism.

. This assessment is not correct; Gill was not a staunch supralapsarian. See John Gill, A Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity, 2 vols. (New ed.; London: Tegg & Company, 1839), vol. I, pp. 261–5; idem.,

Curt Daniel, author of the most extensive research on Gill thus far, correctly interprets much of Gill's thought, but determines that he was a hyper-Calvinist in part because of a contrast he draws between Gill and Calvin.
Not all have found this approach convincing.

6 Many convictions contributed to Gill's final position – a belief in prelapsarian Adam's inability to exercise faith in Christ, an equivalence understanding of the atonement, and a framing of the pactum salutis that minimized human response, to name just a few. I choose to highlight eternal justification here because Gill often emphasized it and because it played an important role in shaping his understanding of evangelism. For a brief introduction to Gill's theological convictions – one that aligns closely with the interpretation of Gill offered in this article – see Michael A. G. Haykin, ‘Remembering Baptist Heroes: The Example of John Gill,’ in Ministry By His Grace and For His Glory: Essays in Honor of Thomas J. Nettles, ed. by Thomas K. Ascol and Nathan A. Finn (Cape Coral: Founders Press, 2011), pp. 17–37.

10 Complete Body, vol. I, p. 286. One wishes that Gill had further clarified his statements about the elect possessing an eternal subsistence in Christ. Unfortunately he did not do so.

 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
I bet I've read more John Gill than you have!
Well if that is the case, it should be easy for you to show how it is so.I do not hold to 100% of what most anyone says, but I have found that those who despise the doctrines of grace call any Calvinist, or any believer that believes the biblical teaching as Hyper,lol
The same question can be turned to you when a different interpretation is taken from the same Scripture.
Sure it can, by I will respond
My point is that John Gill leans toward Hyper-Calvinism, the extremes of that belief.
you say that, but they say the proof is in the pudding!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I bet I've read more John Gill than you have!

The same question can be turned to you when a different interpretation is taken from the same Scripture.

My point is that John Gill leans toward Hyper-Calvinism, the extremes of that belief.
A good rule of thumb if reading for theology is to avoid writers prior to the 1960's on some issues.

The reason is they held questionable assumptions about the 1st Century. This was not their fault (in absence of distinctions we assume common views). But since the late 1950's discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrolls calls into question some of these assumptions.

Also, theology always addresses questions contemporary to the time it was developed. As theology depends on historical theology (theology always looks back to build on what it sees as true and correct what it sees as an error related to the human condition) older theologies are less trustworthy (depending on the topic).
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Charlie, what do you see here for example that looks Hyper to you?

3d. It is by some divines called, "the covenant of redemption"; and very truly, because the redemption of God's elect is a principal article in it: the Father proposed to the Son, that he should raise up, restore, redeem Israel, his chosen ones; the Son agreed to it, and hence he was declared and promised, and expected as the Redeemer, long before he came into this world to do this service; Job knew him as his living Redeemer, and all the Old Testament saints waited for him as such, having had a promise of it, which was founded on this covenant agreement; for as it was proposed to him, and he agreed to it, to be the Redeemer, so it was promised him, that upon the condition of giving himself, the redemption and ransom price for the elect, they should be delivered from all their sins, and the effects of them, and out of the hands of all their enemies; see #Isa 49:5 59:20 Job 33:24. But then,
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
A good rule of thumb if reading for theology is to avoid writers prior to the 1960's on some issues.
that is your opinion
The reason is they held questionable assumptions about the 1st Century. This was not their fault (in absence of distinctions we assume common views). But since the late 1950's discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scrolls calls into question some of these assumptions.
see comments below on this below
If anything, the extra biblical writing portions looked as if they support the doctrines of grace!
1QS:ix,5–7

Out of the Source of His Justice arise the norms of the Light in my heart. From the Secrets of His Miraculous Power mine eye saw the Eternal Ground of Being of the world, a Salvation, which is Hidden from him who seeks knowledge, and Wise Insight, that is Greater than that of the sons of men, namely the Origin of Justice and the Concentration of Strength Together with the Place of (His) Glory. Among mortals, G-d Gave It (this Salvation) to those whom He Elected, for their Eternal Possession, and let them Participate in the Lot of the Holy Ones, and with the sons of Heaven He Combined their Assembly, thereby Forming the Council of the Community.

God has allotted them their appointed place in his plan, for from the source of light come all the spirits of knowledge, truth, and understanding, and from the source of darkness come all the spirits of error and perversity” (1QS 3:18–20).

“You, O God, have made known to me the mysteries of your wisdom, and the secrets of your knowledge you have revealed to me, because you have chosen me from among men and appointed me as your servant” (1QH 6:11–12).

So this idea of changes, is not really grounded!
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Well if that is the case, it should be easy for you to show how it is so.I do not hold to 100% of what most anyone says, but I have found that those who despise the doctrines of grace call any Calvinist, or any believer that believes the biblical teaching as Hyper,lol

Sure it can, by I will respond

you say that, but they say the proof is in the pudding!

If you can't see that John Gill is hyper in his explanations, then the word "hyper" probably doesn't exist in your vocabulary.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
If you can't see that John Gill is hyper in his explanations, then the word "hyper" probably doesn't exist in your vocabulary.
Since you bet you have read much more of Gill than I have, you should be able to offer 4 or 5 examples of it.

In post 12 I quoted a small part of what Alan posted. Could you say what you see there as Hyper?

What is Your understanding of The Covenant of Redemption?
What is your understandings of the Covenant of Grace?

Show from the quotes where you differ.
Offer a link that you believe answers to what Alan has shared
 
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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
that is your opinion
Well....no....not my opinion. It is a requirement in seminaries (one coukd nit, for example, use John Gill in an academic paper). So not an opinion, just an academic standard (and I know we are not academics).

But, like I said, a lot depends on the topic. A lot also depends on the reason a reference is used.

For example, a lot of the understanding Christians had regarding the 1st century Jewish concept of the law has been proven wrong by the discovery of 1st century writings from Jews concerning the law

Another example would be details about 1st century Jewish sects and their influence that we did nit know about until ancient writings from these sects were discovered.


Also theology develops over time.

You mentioned focusing less on systematic theology and more on biblical theology (focusing in a specific epistles, for examole, rather than doctrine derived using Scripture as a whole).

I think you would also be interested in historical theology as well. This does not realky related to understanding the Bible per se, but it does help in understanding doctrine. When I was younger this was a key study. Now I think people tend to ignore theological development and pretend their theology has always existed.

It is fascinating, to me anyway. We take the Doctrine of the Trinity at face value. But when developing the fuller doctrines they wrestled over using words like "person" and "nature". I think to us (to me, anyway) those words are obvious, but we grew up long after they were chosen and sometimes do not see how they could be an issue when applied to God (we know what they mean in the context of the doctrine).


You and I have talked about the Atonement. Do here is another example that you may appreciate mire:

We hear it occasionally said that John Calviin did not belueve in Limited Atonement. This is true, but it ignores an important truth. The issue of the scope of the Atonement was a question that came up after Calvin's death. It was built from Calvin's theology, but not until Beza systemically placed salvation under divine sovereignty (Calvin did not categorize salvation in that way).

Limited Atonement was never believed until after Calvin had died. BUT only because the question did not exist.

We cannot say where Calvin would stand on the doctrine. Some say since he wrote that Christ is the propitiation for all humanity excluding nobody he would reject the doctrine. I believe Limited Atonement is the necessary conclusion of his theology if the Scope of the Atonement is the topic, and he would probably affirm the doctrine. But we can't really know.


Theology always re-examine the theology that came before and tries to pick out what is true and remove tgat which is false. It has to because "we see now as through a glass, dimly). An unchanging theology is a dead faith.

Calvin did this with Anselm and Aquinas' work. Aquinas did this with Anselm's work. They ate what they saw as meat and spit out the bones.

You can even read about Calvin's development of Penal Substitution Theory in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (pay attention to Anselm's Cur Deus Homo?). Calvin explains his reasoning.

Anyway, if you like Christian history I think you will enjoy historical theology.

The cool thing is we have the writings of many if these theologians and can see just what they were considering when they developed their doctrines.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Since you bet you have read much more of Gill than I have, you should be able to offer 4 or 5 examples of it.

In post 12 I quoted a small part of what Alan posted. Could you say what you see there as Hyper?

What is Your understanding of The Covenant pf Redemption?
What is your understandings of the Covenant of Grace?

Show from the quotes where you differ.
Offer a link that you believe answers to what Alan has shared

Gill is over the top with Sovereignty, he viewed the Elect justified before they came to actual faith in Christ.

This leads to several other problems related to "hyper."

That is not what the Calvinists believe that I know personally.
 

Zaatar71

Well-Known Member
Well....no....not my opinion. It is a requirement in seminaries (one coukd nit, for example, use John Gill in an academic paper). So not an opinion, just an academic standard (and I know we are not academics).

But, like I said, a lot depends on the topic. A lot also depends on the reason a reference is used.

For example, a lot of the understanding Christians had regarding the 1st century Jewish concept of the law has been proven wrong by the discovery of 1st century writings from Jews concerning the law

Another example would be details about 1st century Jewish sects and their influence that we did nit know about until ancient writings from these sects were discovered.


Also theology develops over time.

You mentioned focusing less on systematic theology and more on biblical theology (focusing in a specific epistles, for examole, rather than doctrine derived using Scripture as a whole).

I think you would also be interested in historical theology as well. This does not realky related to understanding the Bible per se, but it does help in understanding doctrine. When I was younger this was a key study. Now I think people tend to ignore theological development and pretend their theology has always existed.

It is fascinating, to me anyway. We take the Doctrine of the Trinity at face value. But when developing the fuller doctrines they wrestled over using words like "person" and "nature". I think to us (to me, anyway) those words are obvious, but we grew up long after they were chosen and sometimes do not see how they could be an issue when applied to God (we know what they mean in the context of the doctrine).


You and I have talked about the Atonement. Do here is another example that you may appreciate mire:

We hear it occasionally said that John Calviin did not belueve in Limited Atonement. This is true, but it ignores an important truth. The issue of the scope of the Atonement was a question that came up after Calvin's death. It was built from Calvin's theology, but not until Beza systemically placed salvation under divine sovereignty (Calvin did not categorize salvation in that way).

Limited Atonement was never believed until after Calvin had died. BUT only because the question did not exist.

We cannot say where Calvin would stand on the doctrine. Some say since he wrote that Christ is the propitiation for all humanity excluding nobody he would reject the doctrine. I believe Limited Atonement is the necessary conclusion of his theology if the Scope of the Atonement is the topic, and he would probably affirm the doctrine. But we can't really know.


Theology always re-examine the theology that came before and tries to pick out what is true and remove tgat which is false. It has to because "we see now as through a glass, dimly). An unchanging theology is a dead faith.

Calvin did this with Anselm and Aquinas' work. Aquinas did this with Anselm's work. They ate what they saw as meat and spit out the bones.

You can even read about Calvin's development of Penal Substitution Theory in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (pay attention to Anselm's Cur Deus Homo?). Calvin explains his reasoning.

Anyway, if you like Christian history I think you will enjoy historical theology.

The cool thing is we have the writings of many if these theologians and can see just what they were considering when they developed their doctrines.
In History much theology began to be ironed out and over time some things became clearer.
The problem in much of the historical theology is they lacked much in the way of perspective.
Before the printing press the historical ideas were more subject to corruption with some of the men being unsaved men. Much discussion of the history is subjective. Those opposed to grace attempt to frame it in a way to is favourable to those points that they reject.
 
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