Historic Premillennialism and Daniel’s 70 Weeks

[Mr. Lunt]

I have a question for all of you Bible prophecy scholars out there. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around historic premillennialism, which is a subset of premillennialism.

Dispensationalism holds that there are the 69 weeks in Daniel, followed by the coming of the Messiah, then a gap, which is the church age. The gap ends with the rapture which triggers Daniel’s 70th week.

I know that generally speaking the historic premillennialists view the church age as foreseen in the Old Testament. Dispensationalists do not. The gap makes sense in this case, if it was not foreseen.

Do historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective? That the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? Or is it something similar to the dispensationalist view? I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

I appreciate it.

 

[Oseas3]

I have a question for all of you Bible prophecy scholars out there. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around historic premillennialism, which is a subset of premillennialism.

Dispensationalism holds that there are the 69 weeks in Daniel, followed by the coming of the Messiah, then a gap, which is the church age. The gap ends with the rapture which triggers Daniel’s 70th week.

I know that generally speaking the historic premillennialists view the church age as foreseen in the Old Testament. Dispensationalists do not. The gap makes sense in this case, if it was not foreseen.

Do historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective? That the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? Or is it something similar to the dispensationalist view? I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

I appreciate it.

ATTENTION : GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - BE CAREFUL

ATTENTION : GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - BE CAREFUL | Friends Of Jesus

Greetings in Christ JESUS GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - THAT THEY BELIEVE A LIE The Word is GOD. Isaiah 66:v.4

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Real interpretation through Bible of the last week 70th-Daniel 9:v.27

Real interpretation through Bible of the last week 70th-Daniel 9:v.27

THE REAL INTERPRETATION THROUGH THE BIBLE OF THE WEEK 70TH - DANIEL 9:v.27 - THE LAST WEEK - ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION 587 B.C. - Judah is conquered by Babylon - Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled to Babylon. 587 - 559 B.C. - The conquer of Judah's kingdom by...

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[John of Japan]

I have a question for all of you Bible prophecy scholars out there. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around historic premillennialism, which is a subset of premillennialism.

Dispensationalism holds that there are the 69 weeks in Daniel, followed by the coming of the Messiah, then a gap, which is the church age. The gap ends with the rapture which triggers Daniel’s 70th week.

I know that generally speaking the historic premillennialists view the church age as foreseen in the Old Testament. Dispensationalists do not. The gap makes sense in this case, if it was not foreseen.

Do historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective? That the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? Or is it something similar to the dispensationalist view? I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

I appreciate it.

Perhaps I can post more later, but here is the basic answer. Historic premillennialism was the doctrine of the early church until Augustine, almost without exception, and that is why it is called that. In modern times it is applied to non-dispensational premil folk such as my grandfather was, but he did apply the 70 weeks, etc., like dispensational premil.

 

[Oseas3]

Revelation 16:13-15

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon->(dragon? Revelation 13:11 and 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Revelation 12:9 ), and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. -> ( why frogs? ) -> THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
JESUS warned:
15 Behold, I come as a thief. -> (Be prepared por else get ready)
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.-> (Genesis 3:8-12, remembering that we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium).

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Do historic premillennialists view this passage with a preterist perspective? That the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled? Or is it something similar to the dispensationalist view?

I can't take the 'pre' or 'post' millennialist positions seriously, since there is no reference they can produce where Jesus is said to Reign on Earth for a Thousand-years/ a 'millennium', and with having no Biblical basis, they want to claim some belief that is obviously just imagined by the weakness of man's reasoning that has experienced the curse of the Fall.

"Preterism" is worse, however, and considered heresy in most quarters from what I understand, since Jesus' Coming that is depicted in Matthew 24:27; "For as the lightning cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the West; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be" is discribing the Coming of Jesus Christ in Providencial Judgement against the Jews, by the Roman Army, as God used them to deviour and desimate the Jewish Economy of Worship, in the distruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, as we see in the next verse, 28; "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together," where the "carcase" is the Jews suffwring the Desolation of Abomination spoken of by Daniel and the "eagles" are the Roman Army.

The rashness with which what Jesus is talking about there somehow automatically equates His Words about His "Coming" to try and mean His "Second Coming" is just shortsightedness, particularly if one were to suppose that saying Jesus' Second Coming has already taken place was in any way rational (which is why "Preterism" is considered heresy).

I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

Here's a fine publication as you'll ever want to see on its subject matter, "The Bible and the Future", by Anthony A. Hoekema. Great to have it available free online; https://cdn.bookey.app/files/pdf/book/en/the-bible-and-the-future.pdf

Dean Davies' book, "The High King of Heaven", is very, very good, also. He is very brotherly in his comparisons among the various End Times positions; chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/davis/The%20High%20King%20of%20Heaven%20-%20Dean%20Davis.pdf

Philip Mauro, The Hope of Israel [1929], is a Classic, along with his, "The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation" - A Study of the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ, which gets down to detail about the subject, as does another Classic, by William Hendriksen, "More than Conquerors" - An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation".

These all treat Revelation 20:4, as speaking of Jesus' Current Spiritual Reign from Heaven, being what it is, His Reign from Heaven, Spiritually, now.

Genesis 3:8-12, remembering that we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium

Genesis 3:1; "Thus the Heavens and the Earth were Finished, and all the host of them.

2; "And on the seventh day God ended His Work which He had Made; and He Rested on the seventh day from all His Work which He had Made."

So, if by some odd gyrations a person thought each Day of Creation had anything to do with different Eras in the future(?), then now that, as you say, "we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium", that has to mean that you believe God is currently in a thousand-year-long State of Rest?

Fascinating.

Then, if you compare Scripture with Scripture and see where the Days in Genesis were each stated like in Genesis 1:4b; "God Divided the light from the darkness" & 5; "And God Called the light Day, and the darkness He Called Night" with each day consisting of "the Evening and the Morning", which for example was on "the First Day...", then if there was any reason to deviate from that formula of a 'Day' = 24-hours, it's not to be found in the Bible.

Right?

 

[Oseas3]

I can't take the 'pre' or 'post' millennialist positions seriously, since there is no reference they can produce where Jesus is said to Reign on Earth for a Thousand-years/ a 'millennium', and with having no Biblical basis, they want to claim some belief that is obviously just imagined by the weakness of man's reasoning that has experienced the curse of the Fall.

"Preterism" is worse, however, and considered heresy in most quarters from what I understand, since Jesus' Coming that is depicted in Matthew 24:27; "For as the lightning cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the West; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be" is discribing the Coming of Jesus Christ in Providencial Judgement against the Jews, by the Roman Army, as God used them to deviour and desimate the Jewish Economy of Worship, in the distruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, as we see in the next verse, 28; "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together," where the "carcase" is the Jews suffwring the Desolation of Abomination spoken of by Daniel and the "eagles" are the Roman Army.

The rashness with which what Jesus is talking about there somehow automatically equates His Words about His "Coming" to try and mean His "Second Coming" is just shortsightedness, particularly if one were to suppose that saying Jesus' Second Coming has already taken place was in any way rational (which is why "Preterism" is considered heresy).

I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

Here's a fine publication as you'll ever want to see on its subject matter, "The Bible and the Future", by Anthony A. Hoekema. Great to have it available free online; https://cdn.bookey.app/files/pdf/book/en/the-bible-and-the-future.pdf

Dean Davies' book, "The High King of Heaven", is very, very good, also. He is very brotherly in his comparisons among the various End Times positions; chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/davis/The High King of Heaven - Dean Davis.pdf

Philip Mauro, The Hope of Israel [1929], is a Classic, along with his, "The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation" - A Study of the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ, which gets down to detail about the subject, as does another Classic, by William Hendriksen, "More than Conquerors" - An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation".

These all treat Revelation 20:4, as speaking of Jesus' Current Spiritual Reign from Heaven, being what it is, His Reign from Heaven, Spiritually, now.

Oseas said: Genesis 3:8-12, remembering that we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium
Genesis 3:1; "Thus the Heavens and the Earth were Finished, and all the host of them.

2; "And on the seventh day God ended His Work which He had Made; and He Rested on the seventh day from all His Work which He had Made."

So, if by some odd gyrations a person thought each Day of Creation had anything to do with different Eras in the future(?), then now that, as you say, "we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium", that has to mean that you believe God is currently in a thousand-year-long State of Rest?

Fascinating.

Then, if you compare Scripture with Scripture and see where the Days in Genesis were each stated like in Genesis 1:4b; "God Divided the light from the darkness" & 5; "And God Called the light Day, and the darkness He Called Night" with each day consisting of "the Evening and the Morning", which for example was on "the First Day...", then if there was any reason to deviate from that formula of a 'Day' = 24-hours, it's not to be found in the Bible.

Right?

NOTE: The message above is transcribed from an email I received.

Here goes my reply

Yes, perfect. Analysing the biblical ENIGMAS and its interpretation, the expression "GOD rested" , it means, by allegory, GOD Father stoped to work in the end of the sixth Day, exactly in the turn from the sixth to the seventh Day, the Lord's Day.-> By the way, the everlasting GOD, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary, understand?-Isaiah 40:28.-> In fact, there is no works to do in the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium. -> Remember that the Word was made flesh around 2000 years ago, in the turn from the fourth to the fifth Day, right? And JESUS said: -> My Father worketh hitherto, and I work-John 5:17, take a look. In fact, GOD was still working, as JESUS said, because it was still the beginning of the fifth Day, or around 4030 years after Adam. JESUS also said: John 2:19-> Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. He meant His body, He meant also, in addition to his physical body, to the Church, his current body here in the earth—Hebrews 1:1-3. And John 3:35 reveals us that : The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand.

JESUS, knew that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come from GOD->(the Word was made flesh)-> and went to GOD -John 13:3. Therefore, by the Word of GOD, from now on, from this turn of the sixth to the seventh Day, the Lord's Day, our Lord JESUS takes control of the Universe.->1Corinthians 15:24-28-> 24 The END cometh, when JESUS shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD->( Revelation 11:15-18, take a look), even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and ALL AUTHORITY and power. -> Alleluia!!!

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For GOD Father hath put all things UNDER HIS FEET. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.

28 And WHEN->(Revelation 11:15-18) ->all things shall be subdued unto Him (by the Power of the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD)->, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that GOD may be all in all.

AMEN! Praise GOD


On the other hand, OK, perfect, in the FIRST GOD's DAY of work, He divided the light from the darkness, and called the light day, and darkness He called night, However, as you know, this event of the FIRST day has nothing to do with Sun. 2Peter 3:8->Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day.→ By the way, as you know, we are not in darkness, we, believers in Christ JESUS, believers in the Greater Light, we are all the children of Light, and the children of the day, understand? We are not of the night, nor of darkness, right? ->(GOD is Light-1John 1:5, take a look).

By the way, in my discussion about Genesis 1, with Rabbi S. Brownstein, I made the true interpretation of six days of the creation, which is unknown not only by the Jewish Rabbis, but also by Christian Theologians. Generally, their interpretations are merely based on the letter of the Scriptures, a STUMBLINGBLOCK, not on the Spirit who SPOKE and CREATED all things. He spoke, and it all came into being.-> Psalms 33:6 and 9:-> 6 By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; (several heavens, the 1st, 2nd heavens, the 3rd will be PLANTED or established from now on-2Corinthians 12:2-4 combined with ISAIAH 51:16, take a look), and all the host of them by the breath of His MOUTH.-> 9 He spake, and it was done, it came about; He commanded, and it stood fast. GOD is Spirit-John 4:24.

So, the literal interpretation of Genesis 1 it is from a human perspective, it is a stumbling block, it is not from GOD''s perspective. Terrible, very terrible.

Be prepared or else get ready - Matthew 25:6 snd 10

Creation - Discussion with Rabbi - Genesis 1

In the discussion below was used an interpretation something unknown not only by the Jewish Rabbis, but also by Christian Theologians. The discussion is by email, here's the last sent to the Rabbi. Hello Rabbi S. Brownstein By the Grace of the Lord In continuation of our Biblical...

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Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

The Jewish calendar is the type of calendar that the Jewish people use for counting time and commemorating birthdays, festivities, weddings, deaths, religious celebrations and other solemnities. According to the Hebrews, the years are counted from what they believe to be the creation of Adam...

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[John of Japan]

I can't take the 'pre' or 'post' millennialist positions seriously, since there is no reference they can produce where Jesus is said to Reign on Earth for a Thousand-years/ a 'millennium', and with having no Biblical basis, they want to claim some belief that is obviously just imagined by the weakness of man's reasoning that has experienced the curse of the Fall.

Are you kidding? Really? "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).

 

[John of Japan]

Mr. Lunt appears to have abandoned his own thread, which he started weeks ago. Is he therefore trolling?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Are you kidding?

Not in the least.

Your verse follows 20:4, which depicts those in Heaven Reigning with Jesus for one thousand years as being exactly where it says they are: Heaven. No mention or suggestion or allusion to anything out the 'Earth', anywhere, for a reason; Jesus' Reign is taking place in Heaven with those John said "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their .foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).

"I contend that present Christian teaching concerning the last things relies too much on the belief of a future earthly millennial kingdom. Therefore, it may be profitable to see whether the idea that the thousand years mentioned by John refers to a future kingdom is consistent with what the NT , and Revelation in particular, teaches on Satan's binding, the resurrection, and the reign of the saints.

"Additionally, we should explore the clues provided by Revelation's literary framework, style, and structure, as those arising from the biblical use of the expression "one thousand years"...

"For a proper understanding of what this controversial passage says, it may be profitable first to note what it fails to mention. The reason for this unusual approach is that, believe it or not, many interpreters put into this text a lot of things that simply are not there. They assume, usually, based on a preconceived framework, that these things are implicit.

"I will not challenge, for the time being, the validity of this assumption, but simply point out that the following things are not actually mentioned:

"[1] Location. We are not told if the reign John saw took place in a heavenly or earthly realm.​

"[2] A temple. In fact, no building at all is mentioned.

"[3] Sacrifices. No worship is described.

"[4] Jerusalem. Neither heavenly nor earthly Jerusalem are mentioned.

"[5] Israel. Any mention of the land of Israel (Eretz Israel) is lacking

"[6] The Jewish people. Not a single Jewish name, no tribe at all, is mentioned.

"[7] The Gentile nations. They are not in sight in this part of John's vision.

"[8] Earthly life conditions. Peaceful living, the birth of babies, house building, harvesting and the like are conspicuously absent.

"Therefore, those Christians who believe that this text depicts an earthly kingdom are forced to supply some or all of these things to John's succinct description. They usually draw plenty of material from OT prophecies that speak of a glorious future Davidic kingdom. Many of those who embrace this approach adhere to it because they believe it to be required by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

"However, a little reflection will show that this approach falls short of a so-called "consistent literalism." Some early Church Fathers -most notably Irenaeus of Lyon- thought that here an earthly rule of the Church after Christ's second coming is envisaged. No early orthodox millennialist entertained for a minute that the thousand years would be a Jewish kingdom. Therefore, they had to apply all OT prophecies not to Israel as a nation, but to the Christian church.

"On the other hand, some current-day exegetes start from the basic assumption that prophecies addressed to Israel must be fulfilled physically (although they call it a literal fulfillment, actually a physical, as opposed to a spiritual, fulfillment is intended). Since this did not happen in the past, these prophecies must be fulfilled in the future, and they find no other time for this but the thousand years of Revelation 20. Some relevant prophecies in this regard are found in Isaiah (9, 11, 24-27, 35, 65-66), Ezekiel 37-48; Zechariah 12,14,etc.

"However, to apply all these prophecies to the one thousand years period mentioned in Revelation 20, some significant concessions have to be made.

"This is because these prophecies depict the glorious future of Israel with a language clearly resembling OT culture, to wit:​

"[1] The kingdom will be established and kept by sheer power.

"[2] The nations will serve Israel

"[3] Transportation will require ancient means, like asses, horses, and chariots.

"[4] Weapons will be old-fashioned (spears, swords, shields, and the like).

"[5] Sacrifices will be reestablished as under Moses' Law

"[6] New Moons, sabbath day,s and all OT feasts will be celebrated again.

"For belief in a literal earthly kingdom to be sustained, at least some of these things must be understood in figurative, or at least typical ways. But in so doing, the very same principle on which this view is based is undermined. Those who believe in a future Jewish millennium cannot have it both ways." The Thousand Years of Revelation 20

​

 

[Tea]

Mr. Lunt appears to have abandoned his own thread, which he started weeks ago.

I remember as a child watching an episode of Veggietales where Mr. Lunt is banished to the Island of Perpetual Tickling and escorted by the Grim Reaper wielding a giant feather. I guess the writers thought that’s how kids would be able wrap their minds around the concept of Hell.

Of all the things, I don’t know why I still remember that particular detail after so many years.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Are you kidding? Really?

many interpreters put into this text a lot of things that simply are not there.

"I will not challenge, for the time being, the validity of this assumption

Now, I will challenge, using William Hendriksen's Classic, "More than Conqueror's"; this is the teaching of Revelation 20:4-6; "...the ‘thousand years’ of Revelation 20 have a Glorious meaning for God’s people on Earth. Nevertheless, the Glories of Heaven during this period far transcend those which relate to the Earth.

"The next few verses (4-6) describe the condition of the Victorious saints in Heaven, not on Earth. Of course, these two aspects of the millennium, namely, the Earthly (verses 1-3) and the Heavenly (verses 4-6), the binding of Satan and the Reign of the saints, are most intimately related.

"It is in connection with the Personal Reign of our Divine and Human Mediator as a result of His Atoning Work (see Rev. 5) that Satan is bound so that his influence on Earth is partly paralysed (where, as it says, Satan is not allowed "to deceive the Nations").

"It is in connection with this same Personal Reign of Jesus in and from Heaven that the souls of the departed saints are Reigning above (cf. Rev. 3: 21).

"This Personal Reign of Christ in and from Heaven underlies all the visions of the Apocalypse. It is the key to the interpretation of the ‘thousand years’."

"In connection with this ‘Thousand year Reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions.

First, where does it take place?

"According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places.

"(i) The thousand-year reign occurs where the thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw Thrones and they sat upon them. ’ Now, according to the entire book of Revelation, the Throne of Christ and of His people is invariably in Heaven (Rev. 1: 4; 3: 21; 4: 2 if.; etc. ).

"(ii) The Thousand-year Reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read: ‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. ’
"John sees souls, not bodies. He is thinking of souls without bodies, for we read: ‘of them that had been beheaded’.

"In this entire passage there is not a single word about a resurrection of bodies. The distinction between soul and body is even emphasized: ‘the souls of them that had been beheaded’.

"(True, the term ‘souls' at times means ‘people’ (e. g. Gn. 46: 27). But in that case in Genesis, you can substitute the term ‘people’ for ‘souls’. Here in Revelation 20 you cannot do so.)

"The souls Reign during this entire Present Era until Christ’s Second Coming.

My comments -- A lengthy = a thousand-years), but FINITE Period of Time = WHICH COME TO AN END WHEN JESUS RETURNS, which is taking place in Heaven is symbolically defined and represented by 'a thousand-years', and is no different than God saying "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, He is God, the Faithful God, which Keepeth Covenant and Mercy with them that Love Him and keep His Commandments to a thousand generations", in DEUTERONOMY 7:9, where using a conservative number for what we could guess a 'generation' might be in years, of individuals pro-creating here on Earth, as being 40 years(?), for example, in take it literially.

"Then, people will be here on Earth making new generations after generations for 40,000 years? that's 40 years for 'a generation' times 'a thousand generations' that we read there "the Faithful God, which Keepeth Covenant and Mercy with them that Love Him and keep His Commandments to a thousand generations."

That would certainly throw a monkey wrench straight into the middle of a 7,000 years that some assume for Earth's existence, with us now being in the 7th 'Dispensation') -- Unless, 'a thousand years' is interpreted symbolically like all of the other numbers in Revelation are, and how we just saw that is Biblical to comfortably do. -- My comments.

"Afterwards, from Revelation 22:5 we see that in Glory, in Heaven, it is no longer the souls that Reign, for then body and soul are together again. Then the saints Reign, not for a limited though lengthy period—a thousand years—but ‘forever and ever’

"(iii) The Thousand-year Reign also occurs where Jesus Lives, for we read
‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’

"The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the Place from which the Exalted Mediator Rules the Universe? Where does Jesus Live? Clearly, it is in Heaven.

"It is in Heaven that the Lamb is represented as taking the Scroll out of the Hand of Him that Sat on the Throne (Rev. 5).

"Revelation 12 clearly states that Christ was
‘caught up to God and to His Throne...
Therefore, rejoice O Heavens, and ye that dwell Therein’.

"We may safely say, therefore, that the Thousand-year Reign takes place in Heaven."

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Mr. Lunt appears to have abandoned his own thread, which he started weeks ago. Is he therefore trolling?

Trolling wouldn’t be precise. If we are using internet slang I was AFK.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Perhaps I can post more later, but here is the basic answer. Historic premillennialism was the doctrine of the early church until Augustine, almost without exception, and that is why it is called that. In modern times it is applied to non-dispensational premil folk such as my grandfather was, but he did apply the 70 weeks, etc., like dispensational premil.

Thank you. I am told that yes, almost everybody before Augustine thought like this
(excluding Clement of Alexandria and Origen).

I have read a bit of George Eldon Ladd as well as a A Case for Historic Premillennialism (which is more of a collection of eclectic essays than it is an actual case for historic premillennialism). I am having a very hard time finding a resource that is helpful to questions that I have like the one this thread starts with.

Not in the least.

Your verse follows 20:4, which depicts those in Heaven Reigning with Jesus for one thousand years as being exactly where it says they are: Heaven. No mention or suggestion or allusion to anything out the 'Earth', anywhere, for a reason; Jesus' Reign is taking place in Heaven with those John said "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their .foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

"I contend that present Christian teaching concerning the last things relies too much on the belief of a future earthly millennial kingdom. Therefore, it may be profitable to see whether the idea that the thousand years mentioned by John refers to a future kingdom is consistent with what the NT , and Revelation in particular, teaches on Satan's binding, the resurrection, and the reign of the saints.

"Additionally, we should explore the clues provided by Revelation's literary framework, style, and structure, as those arising from the biblical use of the expression "one thousand years"...

"For a proper understanding of what this controversial passage says, it may be profitable first to note what it fails to mention. The reason for this unusual approach is that, believe it or not, many interpreters put into this text a lot of things that simply are not there. They assume, usually, based on a preconceived framework, that these things are implicit.

"I will not challenge, for the time being, the validity of this assumption, but simply point out that the following things are not actually mentioned:

"[1] Location. We are not told if the reign John saw took place in a heavenly or earthly realm.​

"[2] A temple. In fact, no building at all is mentioned.

"[3] Sacrifices. No worship is described.

"[4] Jerusalem. Neither heavenly nor earthly Jerusalem are mentioned.

"[5] Israel. Any mention of the land of Israel (Eretz Israel) is lacking

"[6] The Jewish people. Not a single Jewish name, no tribe at all, is mentioned.

"[7] The Gentile nations. They are not in sight in this part of John's vision.

"[8] Earthly life conditions. Peaceful living, the birth of babies, house building, harvesting and the like are conspicuously absent.

"Therefore, those Christians who believe that this text depicts an earthly kingdom are forced to supply some or all of these things to John's succinct description. They usually draw plenty of material from OT prophecies that speak of a glorious future Davidic kingdom. Many of those who embrace this approach adhere to it because they believe it to be required by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

"However, a little reflection will show that this approach falls short of a so-called "consistent literalism." Some early Church Fathers -most notably Irenaeus of Lyon- thought that here an earthly rule of the Church after Christ's second coming is envisaged. No early orthodox millennialist entertained for a minute that the thousand years would be a Jewish kingdom. Therefore, they had to apply all OT prophecies not to Israel as a nation, but to the Christian church.

"On the other hand, some current-day exegetes start from the basic assumption that prophecies addressed to Israel must be fulfilled physically (although they call it a literal fulfillment, actually a physical, as opposed to a spiritual, fulfillment is intended). Since this did not happen in the past, these prophecies must be fulfilled in the future, and they find no other time for this but the thousand years of Revelation 20. Some relevant prophecies in this regard are found in Isaiah (9, 11, 24-27, 35, 65-66), Ezekiel 37-48; Zechariah 12,14,etc.

"However, to apply all these prophecies to the one thousand years period mentioned in Revelation 20, some significant concessions have to be made.

"This is because these prophecies depict the glorious future of Israel with a language clearly resembling OT culture, to wit:​

"[1] The kingdom will be established and kept by sheer power.

"[2] The nations will serve Israel

"[3] Transportation will require ancient means, like asses, horses, and chariots.

"[4] Weapons will be old-fashioned (spears, swords, shields, and the like).

"[5] Sacrifices will be reestablished as under Moses' Law

"[6] New Moons, sabbath day,s and all OT feasts will be celebrated again.

"For belief in a literal earthly kingdom to be sustained, at least some of these things must be understood in figurative, or at least typical ways. But in so doing, the very same principle on which this view is based is undermined. Those who believe in a future Jewish millennium cannot have it both ways." The Thousand Years of Revelation 20

​

I don’t understand most of what you’ve mentioned, to be honest. I would recommend starting a different thread as the majority of what you have mentioned is not pertinent to the question asked.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

ATTENTION : GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - BE CAREFUL

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Greetings in Christ JESUS GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - THAT THEY BELIEVE A LIE The Word is GOD. Isaiah 66:v.4

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Real interpretation through Bible of the last week 70th-Daniel 9:v.27

Real interpretation through Bible of the last week 70th-Daniel 9:v.27

THE REAL INTERPRETATION THROUGH THE BIBLE OF THE WEEK 70TH - DANIEL 9:v.27 - THE LAST WEEK - ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION 587 B.C. - Judah is conquered by Babylon - Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled to Babylon. 587 - 559 B.C. - The conquer of Judah's kingdom by...

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I can't take the 'pre' or 'post' millennialist positions seriously, since there is no reference they can produce where Jesus is said to Reign on Earth for a Thousand-years/ a 'millennium', and with having no Biblical basis, they want to claim some belief that is obviously just imagined by the weakness of man's reasoning that has experienced the curse of the Fall.

"Preterism" is worse, however, and considered heresy in most quarters from what I understand, since Jesus' Coming that is depicted in Matthew 24:27; "For as the lightning cometh out of the East, and shineth even unto the West; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be" is discribing the Coming of Jesus Christ in Providencial Judgement against the Jews, by the Roman Army, as God used them to deviour and desimate the Jewish Economy of Worship, in the distruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, as we see in the next verse, 28; "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together," where the "carcase" is the Jews suffwring the Desolation of Abomination spoken of by Daniel and the "eagles" are the Roman Army.

The rashness with which what Jesus is talking about there somehow automatically equates His Words about His "Coming" to try and mean His "Second Coming" is just shortsightedness, particularly if one were to suppose that saying Jesus' Second Coming has already taken place was in any way rational (which is why "Preterism" is considered heresy).



Here's a fine publication as you'll ever want to see on its subject matter, "The Bible and the Future", by Anthony A. Hoekema. Great to have it available free online; https://cdn.bookey.app/files/pdf/book/en/the-bible-and-the-future.pdf

Dean Davies' book, "The High King of Heaven", is very, very good, also. He is very brotherly in his comparisons among the various End Times positions; chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/davis/The%20High%20King%20of%20Heaven%20-%20Dean%20Davis.pdf

Philip Mauro, The Hope of Israel [1929], is a Classic, along with his, "The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation" - A Study of the Last Two Visions of Daniel, and of the Olivet Discourse of the Lord Jesus Christ, which gets down to detail about the subject, as does another Classic, by William Hendriksen, "More than Conquerors" - An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation".

These all treat Revelation 20:4, as speaking of Jesus' Current Spiritual Reign from Heaven, being what it is, His Reign from Heaven, Spiritually, now.




Genesis 3:1; "Thus the Heavens and the Earth were Finished, and all the host of them.

2; "And on the seventh day God ended His Work which He had Made; and He Rested on the seventh day from all His Work which He had Made."

So, if by some odd gyrations a person thought each Day of Creation had anything to do with different Eras in the future(?), then now that, as you say, "we are at the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium", that has to mean that you believe God is currently in a thousand-year-long State of Rest?

Fascinating.

Then, if you compare Scripture with Scripture and see where the Days in Genesis were each stated like in Genesis 1:4b; "God Divided the light from the darkness" & 5; "And God Called the light Day, and the darkness He Called Night" with each day consisting of "the Evening and the Morning", which for example was on "the First Day...", then if there was any reason to deviate from that formula of a 'Day' = 24-hours, it's not to be found in the Bible.

Right?

Hmm. I am familiar with amillennialism. I don’t subscribe to it personally, but some interesting thoughts.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

I remember as a child watching an episode of Veggietales where Mr. Lunt is banished to the Island of Perpetual Tickling and escorted by the Grim Reaper wielding a giant feather. I guess the writers thought that’s how kids would be able wrap their minds around the concept of Hell.

Of all the things, I don’t know why I still remember that particular detail after so many years.

Yes, that banishment was not fun. 1/10 would not recommend.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I have a question for all of you Bible prophecy scholars out there. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around historic premillennialism

I was saying that any time spent studying about historic premillennialism would be a non-Biblical waste.

premillennialism

Worthless waste.

Dispensationalism

Of zero value for edification.

preterist

Wrong, to the point of heresy, just as you would view those other man-made schemes once you grasp onto some Bible teaching.

I have scoured resources that I have, as well as the Internet and I can’t find it.

Stop, is my recommendation.

I don’t understand most of what you’ve mentioned, to be honest.

No one knows everything. I was just desperately attempting to get you directed away from error, for starters.

I would recommend starting a different thread

You are totally correct here. Very good.

as the majority of what you have mentioned is not pertinent to the question asked.

Other than me rudely interrupting and interjecting the out-of-hand dismissals of what I consider pure junk, above, because it, in the Name of God, is just that = garbage. Garbage In = Garbage Out. They each have nothing but garbage pumped up and cooked into them, so that nothing good can come out of them.

Do you see, for example, anything about a Reign "on Earth" in this verse or anywhere else in the Bible?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4.

That "thousand years" mentioned is where the word people have come up with, calling something a "millennium", which immediately throws the discussion into compartmentalising the subject, into choosing one "millennium" or the other, when the Bible does no such thing.

How nice. Then, these nice people, by the millions Worldwide, give you a choice, when you'd like one "millennium" or the other to take place; however, who's asking God about all this subject matter*?

When they are namesakes of Revelation 20:4 and all talk about a Reign of Jesus Christ on the Earth, and Revelation 20:4 doesn't say a word about the Earth, I begin to see a sharp Worldwide misunderstanding problem that millions and possibly billions of people have in attempting to understand what God would have them know about the End Times.

Jesus is Coming Back and when that Event occurs, *according to 66 relevant New Testament 'teaching' passages, Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, AND the OPPORTUNITY FOR EVANGELIZING ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, IS OVER FOREVER. THAT WILL BE THE END OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, and the Consummation of the Church Age and World History.

Where is a verse 'teaching' anything about Jesus Reigning on Earth?

Somebody must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

And what did they expect, dismissing the Lord and running off with things just off the top of their head, with zero Bible support = imprudent, poor judgment.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Hmm. I am familiar with amillennialism. I don’t subscribe to it personally, but some interesting thoughts.

Thank you, Praise the Lord. Yes, where the Bible says, "Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, who keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations", in Deuteronomy 7:9, we both know that it's not talking about 'a thousand' generations (with actual 35-year long calendar years being equal to the time between each of a 'thousand' generations).

That would make it 35,000 years before the Lord would be able to Come Back. How's that sit with you in your Eschatological Laboratory ?

You know what I'm saying; just really let the Bible interpret itself, as much as possible. Like you have never done before.

 

[John of Japan]

Trolling wouldn’t be precise. If we are using internet slang I was AFK.

Welcome back!

 

[John of Japan]

I remember as a child watching an episode of Veggietales where Mr. Lunt is banished to the Island of Perpetual Tickling and escorted by the Grim Reaper wielding a giant feather. I guess the writers thought that’s how kids would be able wrap their minds around the concept of Hell.

Of all the things, I don’t know why I still remember that particular detail after so many years.

Weird stuff!

 

[Tea]

Weird stuff!

Hey, it was the 90’s.