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What Doctrine could keep us from Heaven?
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Tea
Member
No Calvinist would deny that Abraham had to make a choice. However, they would argue that God needed to change his desires first.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The issue is not that Abraham WAS righteous (as something innate to Abraham) … his actions certainly indicate otherwise … the point is that Abraham “believed God” (that’s called “faith”) and that God “credited” Abraham as “righteous”. Whoever God calls “righteous” is righteous … because God said so and only God gets to make that decision.
As it was for Abraham, so it is for us. We are, what God says we are, because God said it (that makes it so).
As it was for Abraham, so it is for us. We are, what God says we are, because God said it (that makes it so).
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Does breaking your chains and freeing you from enslavement to sin make you “a robot” or does it empower you to finally be FREE? (Ephesians 2:1-4)
God is bound to His Word! He would be a liar if He didn't.
God cannot change what is written in His Word, and we know exactly how man is made righteous, every single one of us.
Tea
Member
No. God allows mankind to act freely according to their fallen nature, unless divine intervention happens.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
How was Abraham “made righteous”?
How are you and I “made righteous”?
Is it really the same in both cases? Can you support that with scripture?
[You may be right, I am offering you a chance to prove my understanding wrong].
Is there another way of salvation other than faith in the Calvinist Dictionary?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists all have “faith”, yet none would argue that it saves them. That was why I requested SCRIPTURE, because the devil is in the details.
PS. It was a Biblical question, not a Calvinist question. (I am a Particular Baptist, so John Calvin means nothing to me).
You know we're talking about faith in the finished work of Christ.
Got to throw in your angles and rabbit trails leading back to the Calvinist Dictionary.
Calvin may mean nothing to you, but being a PB more than likely the 5 points do.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That was my inquiry: “Did Abraham really have faith in the finished work of Christ?”
How precognitive of him.
Ascetic X
New Member
In the Bible, faith does not mean believing in something, but believing God. Jesus often told healed individuals “your faith has made you whole”, meaning your trusting God.
We know that Abraham had knowledge of the coning Christ/Messiah. I personally believe that is a part of what Abraham believed from God.
Whether a vision or dream who knows, but Christ told us that Abraham seen His day and was glad.
John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Of course, with the exception of L, the other 4 are explicitly stated in scripture.
(T)
[Eph 2:1-3 ESV] 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
[Rom 3:10-12 ESV] 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
[Rom 6:16-22 ESV] 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
(U)
[Rom 9:15-16 ESV] 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
[Eph 2:8-9 ESV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(I)
[Jhn 6:44-45 ESV] 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
[Jhn 10:27 ESV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[Act 13:48 ESV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(P)
[Jhn 10:28-29 ESV] 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[Phl 1:6 ESV] 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
[1Pe 1:3-5 ESV] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Everyone, well everyone who has been paying attention knows very well where I stand on the 5 points.
I believe in total depravity but not in the way of the Calvinists and Sovereign Grace, and I can't go any further with the remaining 4.
Quite frankly tired of discussing it!
Tea
Member
What effect does this supposed divine intervention have on those who are perishing?
1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.