JESUS SUFFERED THE WRATH OF GOD EQUIVALENT OF OUR ETERNAL HELL.

[Dave G]

Additionally, the Corporal Death Christ Endured in the Flesh included a Death in His Soul, Equal to a Spiritual and an Eternal Death, though not a Death of His Soul.

No it did not.
What's more, does anyone notice how Gill is stating contradictory things here?
That Christ endured a death of His soul, equal to a spiritual and eternal death, yet He did not?

Yet He did not.

If He did, He would be suffering in Hell along with the rest of those who are there, and be cast into the Lake of Fire along with them when death and Hell are cast into it ( Revelation 20:13-15 ).

 

[Dave G]

“Now Christ Endured what was similar and answerable to these;
because for a while He Suffered 1.) the Punishment of Loss of His Father's Gracious Presence, when He said, "My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me!?"

Yes, just as David felt in the Psalms ( and is a prophecy pertaining to the Lord Jesus ) in the midst of his trials, Jesus expressed that same feeling in the midst of His own pain and suffering;
Instead, we are told these things:

" and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." ( Matthew 3:17 ).

" I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." ( John 17:23-26 )

" And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." ( John :29 ).

Do we believe what these say?
I do.
So, according to God's word, Jesus never suffered the loss of God's presence, even though Gill ( and many men who came before and after him ) thinks that He did.


My friend, the "Church Fathers" were wrong about a great many things;
Why do we borrow from them, when we have the right to go to the very same "well" that they did and to read and believe His words for ourselves?

 

[Dave G]

Despite the things that were allowed to happen at the hands of men by God the Father ( by His pre-determinate counsel and foreknowledge ), a careful reading of the Scriptures, my friend, should have made a man like Gill stop and think on the eternal relationship that He has with God the Son...

The Father never left the Son, even though the Lord Jesus, on the cross, felt that He had.
In no way was God the Father angry with Him, neither did ( or will ) Jesus ever suffer what those who are not saved will experience in the fires of Hell and of the Lake of Fire.

This is why I do not subscribe to not only the "substitutionary atonement" theory ( that the Lord Jesus "took our place" on the cross ), but the very idea that God was every angry with His Son, or that His wrath for our sins was ever laid upon Him there...
Because when I read the Scriptures, I make a "case study" of it, comparing what we're told about their relationship with declarations about what exactly happened on the cross, why it happened and for whom He suffered and died for.


In order to have truly and completely taken our place, I see that He would be in Hell right now...
Facing judgement from God the Father ( instead of Jesus Himself sitting on that throne, judging humanity ), who would then have Him cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternal torment with all those that He did not choose to save.

His wrath is eternal upon all those who hate God and refuse to repent of their sins, and it will be carried out, Alan.
That is what it would be to "take our place", and to have His wrath laid upon Him.


May God bless you as you think upon these things, sir.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Additionally, the Corporal Death Christ Endured in the Flesh included a Death in His Soul, Equal to a Spiritual and an Eternal Death, though not a Death of His Soul.

The Eternal Death Jesus sensed was when He, as a Human being, was separated from the Father, saying, "My God, My God, why hath Thou Forsaken Me", while still United to The Infinite Eternal Being of the Son, the Second Person in the Triune Godhead, in Matthew 27:46, "And about the ninth hour Jesus Cried with a Loud Voice, saying, Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou Forsaken Me?"

Jesus' Soul did not Die, but He experienced a Separation from everything Good and Benevolent that Jesus had Enjoyed in Fellowship and Communion with the Father and the Spirit from all Eternity Past.

That is where it is said in Isaiah, "He hath Put Him to Grief", when Jesus not only didn't have the Complacency, Peace, and Joy of His Fellowship throughout Eternity with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but since God could not Look upon Iniquity", "Thou Art of Purer Eyes than to Behold Evil, and canst not Look on Iniquity", from Habakkuk 1:13, Jesus then Suffered the Grief of the Infinite Suffering the children God Gave to Him , which means a pure sensation of an Eternal Hell.

"The Sorrows of Death Compassed Me, and the Pains of Hell gat hold upon Me: I found Trouble and Sorrow." Psalm 116:3.

And then in Psalm 13:1; the Psalmist also expresses Jesus' Deep Sense of Abandonment and Longing for God's Presence: "How Long, O LORD? Will You Forget Me Forever? How Long Will You Hide Your Face from Me?", and this mentions that the Sorrow He Endured was equivalent to an Eternity of Sorrow, as it also says there, "Will You Forget Me Forever?", as the answer to "How Long Will You Hide Your Face from Me?

So, by looking at verses like these, we get an even clearer understanding of what took place where the Bible says "when Thou shalt Make His Soul an Offering for sin" in Isaiah 53:10

"Yet it Pleased the LORD to Bruise Him; He hath Put Him to Grief: when Thou shalt Make His Soul an Offering for sin, He shall See His Seed, He shall Prolong His Days, and the Pleasure of the LORD shall Prosper in His Hand." Isaiah 53:10.

As John Gill said, Jesus Suffered the equivalent of an Eternal Death IN HIS SOUL.

While, Jesus, of course, did not experience an actual death OF HIS SOUL.

If you want to know how Jesus could say "It is Finished", when He was still Alive. He was still Alive Physically, but it was when Jesus' "Soul was Made an Offering for sin" that It was Finished, "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He Bowed His Head, and Gave Up the Ghost."

What's more, does anyone notice how Gill is stating contradictory things here?
That Christ endured a death of His soul, equal to a spiritual and eternal death, yet He did not?

I started to capitalize these prepositions but thought it was too tacky.

Here it is again,

As John Gill said, Jesus Suffered the equivalent of an Eternal Death IN HIS SOUL.

While, Jesus, of course, did not experience an actual death OF HIS SOUL.

If He did, He would be suffering in Hell along with the rest of those who are there, and be cast into the Lake of Fire along with them when death and Hell are cast into it ( Revelation 20:13-15 ).

No, you're right. Jesus never went to Hell.

“There are some things in them that are hard to understand” (2 Pet. 3:16).

The reference below is sometimes misinterpreted by some who fall into believing something like that.

"For Christ also Suffered Once for sins, the Righteous for the Unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to Death in the Flesh but made Alive in the Spirit, in which He went and Proclaimed to the Spirits in Prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s Patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." (1 Pet. 3:18–20)

What, is Peter saying? He’s saying that Noah, in the course of building the ark, bore testimony to the coming Judgment of God. He was the “herald of Righteousness,” as Peter says in his second letter (2 Pet. 2:5).

Noah preached in the Power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit whom Peter has earlier called “the Spirit of Christ” (1 Pet. 1:10). But the men and women of Noah’s generation, notwithstanding “God’s Patience” in delaying Judgment, spurned that proclamation. Because of their “former” disobedience, they are presently “in Prison.” That is, their souls, upon their deaths, were justly committed to Hell to be Punished for their sins.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Jesus never suffered the loss of God's presence

See post above JESUS SUFFERED THE WRATH OF GOD EQUIVALENT OF OUR ETERNAL HELL.

Jesus was the Scapegoat Who Went "into the wilderness", to "a land not inhabited".

"|And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness." Leviticus 16:21,22.

If you are concerned about whether God the Father ever stopped Loving Jesus, that is not the case. So, you can still talk about God Loving His Son, just not at the expence of denying the Atonement.

"The Three Divine Persons in the Godhead mutually Love each other; the Father Loves the Son and the Spirit, the Son Loves the Father and the Spirit, and the Spirit Loves the Father and the Son.

"That the Father Loves the Son, is said more than once, John 3:35, 5:20, and the Son is sometimes called the well beloved and dear Son of God, Matthew 3:17, 17:5, Colossians 1:13, He was from all Eternity as "One Brought Up with Him";

"and was Loved by Him before the Foundation of the World; and that with a Love of Complacency and Delight; as He must, since "He is the Brightness of His Glory, the Express Image of His Person", and is of the same Nature, and Possessed of all the same Perfections with Him, Proverbs 8:30,31, John 17:24, Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 2:9 yea, He Loved Jesus as His Servant, as the Mediator, in His State of Humiliation, and Obedience, and under all His Sufferings, and on Account of them;

"and even while Jesus Bore His Wrath as the sinner's Surety, He was the Object of God the Father's Love, as His Son, Isaiah 42:1, Matthew 3:17, John 10:17, and now Jesus is at His Right Hand, in Human Nature, He looks upon Jesus with Delight, and is Well Pleased with His Sacrifice, Satisfaction, and Righteousness." His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 1, Chapter 12

we have the right to go to the very same "well" that they did and to read and believe His words for ourselves

Right, we have every right. Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone took advantage of that Indescribable Blessing God Gave to Mankind on Earth, in The Word of God? I've got to get into it more!

Hope your dislike of some of this teaching isn't just to eliminate the Atonement altogether, instead of properly teaching the Limited Atonement. There is no such thing as "Jesus made it possible for anyone to be saved". According to Jesus and what He said about answering the question of who He Died for, He said, "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep", John 10:15.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You've been listening to the likes of Kenneth Copland and his crowd with this nonsense of Christ dying spiritually.

I have not said anything remotely associated with "Christ dying spiritually" by a million miles that even a stupid fool could be confused about to wind up looking like a retard.

So, your declaration of guessing wrong isn't exactly led by the Spirit of God.

 

[Charlie24]

No.

What part of ON the cross do you deny?
It was finished on the cross before Christ physically died.
John 19:30, When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.(2)


Hear.
His death (1) for sin was completed before his physical death (2).
John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . .
[Christ' death for sins was already finished.]

Christ had the power to forgive sin before He died based on His death on the Cross being a foregone conclusion in the mind of the Father.

The OT saints sins were also forgiven based on this conclusion.

In Lev. 4 the sinner was to place his hand on the head of sin offering and slay the animal. The priest would place the blood on the alter and the sin would be forgiven.

But the blood of the animal could not take away the sin only cover it, only the Blood of Christ could take away the sin with the sin placed on Him rather than the animal.

This took place on the Cross as the Law was satisfied, enabling man the opportunity to be saved.

Christ died for our sins, there was no other way, it was mandatory that He die for us to be saved.

Christ freely gave up His life, but God could no die spiritually, He had never sinned.

 

[Charlie24]

I have not said anything remotely associated with "Christ dying spiritually" by a million miles that even a stupid fool could be confused about to wind up looking like a retard.

So, your declaration of guessing wrong isn't exactly led by the Spirit of God.

Here's what you said in the OP.

"Additionally, the Corporal Death Christ Endured in the Flesh included a Death in His Soul, Equal to a Spiritual and an Eternal Death, though not a Death of His Soul."

Looks like a spiritual death to me, but not clearly said.

 

[JonC]

Christ had the power to forgive sin before He died based on His death on the Cross being a foregone conclusion in the mind of the Father.

The OT saints sins were also forgiven based on this conclusion.

In Lev. 4 the sinner was to place his hand on the head of sin offering and slay the animal. The priest would place the blood on the alter and the sin would be forgiven.

But the blood of the animal could not take away the sin only cover it, only the Blood of Christ could take away the sin with the sin placed on Him rather than the animal.

This took place on the Cross as the Law was satisfied, enabling man the opportunity to be saved.

Christ died for our sins, there was no other way, it was mandatory that He die for us to be saved.

Christ freely gave up His life, but God could no die spiritually, He had never sinned.

I am still not sure why Jesus bearing our sins means that God took our sins from us and put them on Him BUT us bearing His righteousness does not mean God takes His righteousness from Him to put on us. It seems like different standards. (I believe He bore our sins like we now bear His righteousness).

But I agree with your last sentence.

People obviously cannot die spiritually (the first death is physical death, the second death is when death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire...the wicked are already spiritually dead).

 

[Charlie24]

I am still not sure why Jesus bearing our sins means that God took our sins from us and put them on Him BUT us bearing His righteousness does not mean God takes His righteousness from Him to put on us. It seems like different standards. (I believe He bore our sins like we now bear His righteousness).

But I agree with your last sentence.

People obviously cannot die spiritually (the first death is physical death, the second death is when death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire...the wicked are already spiritually dead).

Several times in the OT we read, "the soul that sins shall die."

Depending on the context it can mean physically or spiritually, most often it's spiritually.

It doesn't mean the spirit dies as in ceasing to exist, it's a reference to the second death.

The Scripture doesn't say this exactly but I'm certain that's what it means.

For example, Christ said, "if you believe not I am He, you will die in your sins."

I consider this a spiritual death, the second death, eternal separation from God.

 

[37818]

Christ had the power to forgive sin before He died based on His death on the Cross being a foregone conclusion in the mind of the Father.

The OT saints sins were also forgiven based on this conclusion.

In Lev. 4 the sinner was to place his hand on the head of sin offering and slay the animal. The priest would place the blood on the alter and the sin would be forgiven.

But the blood of the animal could not take away the sin only cover it, only the Blood of Christ could take away the sin with the sin placed on Him rather than the animal.

This took place on the Cross as the Law was satisfied, enabling man the opportunity to be saved.

Christ died for our sins, there was no other way, it was mandatory that He die for us to be saved.

Christ freely gave up His life, but God could no die spiritually, He had never sinned.

Am I to understand you deny all forgiveness given before the cross was due to the finished work on the cross?

 

[Charlie24]

Am I to understand you deny all forgiveness given before the cross was due to the finished work on the cross?

No, that's not what I said! There can be no forgiveness of sins without the sacrifice of Christ.

Forgiveness for the OT saints was based on faith in the coming Messiah, at least where the Law was established.

 

[JesusFan]

The Scripture doesn't say for sure, but I believe after His resurrection HIs took back His power as God.

He had finished what He came to do and claimed His place at the right hand of His Father, being equal with the Father.

So Jesus put aside his deity and was Just a man while upon the earth then?

 

[JesusFan]

You have to limit the atonement in some way.
If our Lord is a ransom for every single person, why are some not ransomed? If He bought with His life, the 'guy heading for swift destruction,' why do some guys still head there? You are limiting the atonement to those who believe or you are saying that when our Lord said, "It is finished," He actually had not finished anything.

‘It is finished.’ What was finished? The foundation stone of God’s purposes in the history of man was now laid once and for all. It had been prophesied and declared in various ways, but now it was accomplished. “The purpose of God may be summarized thus: to display His grace and to magnify His Son in the creating of children in His own image and glory” (A. W. Pink). This was the work given to the Son by the Father: to redeem from among mankind a people for God, cleansed from their sins and this is what He had accomplished. “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do” (John 17:4).

Our Lord is speaking therefore especially of His sacrificial work on the cross. He had prayed in the garden, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” Now He had drained the cup; the three hours of darkness were over, the Father’s wrath towards sin had been propitiated; justice had been satisfied, excepting only the final act of dying which followed almost at once. It was indeed finished.

The word teleo,translated ‘finished’ in John 19:30, appears quite a few times in the New Testament and has some very interesting meanings :-

Matt 11:1, A.V. ‘…..When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples…..’

Matt 17:24. “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”

Luke 2:39. ‘So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord…..’

Luke 18:31. ‘…..And all the things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.’

So what was made an end of at the cross? Our sins, the guilt of them and their very memory in the mind of God (Jer 31:34).

What was paid? The price of our redemption. ‘Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us’ (Gal 3:13).

What was performed? All the righteous requirements of the law.

What was accomplished? All the work that the Father had given Christ to do (John 17:4).

Jesus died in the stead and place of all of the saved jews and saved Gentiles that the Father would bring to him as their Great Shephard

 

[JonC]

Several times in the OT we read, "the soul that sins shall die."

Depending on the context it can mean physically or spiritually, most often it's spiritually.

It doesn't mean the spirit dies as in ceasing to exist, it's a reference to the second death.

The Scripture doesn't say this exactly but I'm certain that's what it means.

For example, Christ said, "if you believe not I am He, you will die in your sins."

I consider this a spiritual death, the second death, eternal separation from God.

I am not sure it means spiritually most of the time (or at all...even those dead spiritually have a soul)
But I have never looked up the times it is used. I can only think of Ezekiel 28 off hand ("the soul that sinneth shall die") but that was physical death (it was about Israel holding sins of the fathers against their children, God describes His ways a paragraph later).

That said, it can get confusing as having "spiritual life" assumes one already has a soul. But in some instances people believe them to be synonyms.

I like keeping it simple (although most would disagree but it is really simple).
"It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment".
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I am not sure that this "second death" is the death of the soul. It certainly is not dying spiritually as if they possess spiritual life they will not experience this second death.

The reason I say that it may not be the death of the soul as I understand the soul to be who we are (as opposed to our body). I lean towards the wicked experiencing an eternal state as the second death. But I also realize annihilation is a legitimate interpretation and would mean the soul dies.

So I can see God destroying the soul, but this soul continuing to exist in that horrible state.


I agree that those who do not believe will die in their sins. The condemnation is they reject the Light. But they reject the Light because of their sins (their minds are set on the flesh, which is death. They love their sins so they reject Christ).

And I agree that in Christ we do not remain in our sins. But I believe this is because God forgives us based on "repentance", "a new heart", " turning from wickedness", "dying to sin", "turning to Him", etc.



My question was more about Jesus bearing our sins.

So many automatically reason that if Jesus bears our sins they had to be taken away from us snd put on Him.
But these same people do not believe that us, bearing Christ's righteousness, means His righteousness was taken away from Him and put on us.

I do not get the inconsistently in reasoning.

If we bear Jesus' righteousness and He remains righteousness (something we all believe) then why woukd it also not apply to Jesus bearing our sins? This seems to work better with the idea of God reconciling God to man, Jesus becoming like us, Jesus sharing our sickness, etc.


Just curious.

 

[37818]

Jesus suffered no fire.

Matthew 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .

Deuteronomy 32:22, For a fire is kindled in mine anger, . . . .

 

[Charlie24]

So Jesus put aside his deity and was Just a man while upon the earth then?

He lived His life as a man just as we do, He laid aside His power as God, but could not lay aside the fact He is and was God.

 

[Charlie24]

I am not sure it means spiritually most of the time (or at all...even those dead spiritually have a soul)
But I have never looked up the times it is used. I can only think of Ezekiel 28 off hand ("the soul that sinneth shall die") but that was physical death (it was about Israel holding sins of the fathers against their children, God describes His ways a paragraph later).

That said, it can get confusing as having "spiritual life" assumes one already has a soul. But in some instances people believe them to be synonyms.

I like keeping it simple (although most would disagree but it is really simple).
"It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment".
"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I am not sure that this "second death" is the death of the soul. It certainly is not dying spiritually as if they possess spiritual life they will not experience this second death.

The reason I say that it may not be the death of the soul as I understand the soul to be who we are (as opposed to our body). I lean towards the wicked experiencing an eternal state as the second death. But I also realize annihilation is a legitimate interpretation and would mean the soul dies.

So I can see God destroying the soul, but this soul continuing to exist in that horrible state.


I agree that those who do not believe will die in their sins. The condemnation is they reject the Light. But they reject the Light because of their sins (their minds are set on the flesh, which is death. They love their sins so they reject Christ).

And I agree that in Christ we do not remain in our sins. But I believe this is because God forgives us based on "repentance", "a new heart", " turning from wickedness", "dying to sin", "turning to Him", etc.



My question was more about Jesus bearing our sins.

So many automatically reason that if Jesus bears our sins they had to be taken away from us snd put on Him.
But these same people do not believe that us, bearing Christ's righteousness, means His righteousness was taken away from Him and put on us.

I do not get the inconsistently in reasoning.

If we bear Jesus' righteousness and He remains righteousness (something we all believe) then why woukd it also not apply to Jesus bearing our sins? This seems to work better with the idea of God reconciling God to man, Jesus becoming like us, Jesus sharing our sickness, etc.


Just curious.

Righteousness earned can't be taken away, none of us can earn it but Christ did earn the righteousness freely given to us with the condition of grace through faith.

Christ as a man stands alone as the only man ever to live that earned God's standard of righteousness. The reason His name is exalted above all names.

So I can't see the comparison, being that Christ earned and cannot lose His righteousness, whereas we are at the mercy of God's grace toward us in that we can't earn anything from God.

 

[Charlie24]

Righteousness earned can't be taken away, none of us can earn it but Christ did earn the righteousness freely given to us with the condition of grace through faith.

Christ as a man stands alone as the only man ever to live that earned God's standard of righteousness. The reason His name is exalted above all names.

So I can't see the comparison, being that Christ earned and cannot lose His righteousness, whereas we are at the mercy of God's grace toward us in that we can't earn anything from God.

This is off topic but needs to be said, imo.

Someone will say, how can the free gift be a free gift if there is a condition on it?

The gift is not based on our performance, it is based on Grace through another's performance, Jesus Christ.

Actually it's based on Love from the very beginning, "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

 

[JonC]

Righteousness earned can't be taken away, none of us can earn it but Christ did earn the righteousness freely given to us with the condition of grace through faith.

Christ as a man stands alone as the only man ever to live that earned God's standard of righteousness. The reason His name is exalted above all names.

So I can't see the comparison, being that Christ earned and cannot lose His righteousness, whereas we are at the mercy of God's grace toward us in that we can't earn anything from God.

I would say that men earn the wages of sin.

My point is that Christ bearing our sin does not imply that this sin was removed from us and put on Him just as us bearing His righteousness does not imply that righteousness was removed from Christ.

I view us coming under Jesus righteousness along the same lines as Christ coming under our sin. He became like us so that we woukd be ome like Him.