Why Provisionism Is Not Biblical

[Zaatar71]

You clearly don’t understand what is Pelagian and what is not.

From your definition you posted.

Pelagianism asserts that individuals can achieve salvation through their own efforts rather than relying on divine grace.

Flowers never states nor can anyone honestly even believe that he is teaching salvation without divine intervention.
You attack anything that isn’t your stripe of Calvinism and you say things that aren’t true. You will inevitably double down and say that you have not made any mistakes but that would be another.

Do you want me to find the audio of him saying it directly??? What will your excuse be then Ben? You men hate the truth of God. When it is put right in front of you, you divert away. I will search for the audio.

 

[Ben1445]

Do you want me to find the audio of him saying it directly??? What will your excuse be then Ben? You men hate the truth of God. When it is put right in front of you, you divert away. I will search for the audio.

I love (sarcastically) how your opinion is the truth of God.
Yes!!! Find the audio. Produce the evidence of the heresy.
Your righteous indignation is juvenile and misguided at best.

 

[Zaatar71]

I love (sarcastically) how your opinion is the truth of God.
Yes!!! Find the audio. Produce the evidence of the heresy.
Your righteous indignation is juvenile and misguided at best.

Here you go , fast forward to the 57;00mminute mark, and listen for 5 minutes...

here is your Pelasgian idol, saying it to uber Arminian Roger Olson, lol listen over and over!

 

[Tea]

If Jesus manifested Himself right in front of them, He would be working in their hearts. He would be interacting with them.

But the implication then is that God is trying to use any means necessary to entice a person to believe, but in most cases, He can’t quite seem to get the job done.

 

[Tea]

Then you are denying all the OT saints and the many people now that are coming to faith in God through dreams and such.

Strange how those that keep saying God is sovereign then refuse to allow Him to be sovereign over His creation.

We are saved by grace through faith. That is not complicated to understand.

I’m sure God uses many different methods to reveal Himself, whether it be through dreams, the preaching of the Gospel, or by reading Scripture.

That doesn’t negate the fact that a person’s heart needs to be changed first in order to respond positively to that revelation.

 

[Zaatar71]

Those like Ben who desire a man centered theology cannot give up their Idol of free will, and an Adam that was only wounded, but did not die Spiritually in the fall.

 

[Silverhair]

Here you go , fast forward to the 57;00mminute mark, and listen for 5 minutes...

here is your Pelasgian idol, saying it to uber Arminian Roger Olson, lol listen over and over!

Well it seems you have a hearing problem so I just copied out the text.

if somebody is in bondage they can still admit they're in bondage without being freed from the bondage
57:00
like an alcoholic for example and alcohol right and still be addicted to alcohol and say I'm addicted to alcohol
57:06
and I need to be checked into a rehab facility and submit to that without being freed from the addiction first and
57:11
in the same way I think that we can be still in bondage to sin but have the capacity to admit or
57:17
confess yeah we're I'm in bondage to sin and I need I need a Savior I need help and and therefore to be regenerated
57:24
through faith not you know pre faith regeneration

BTW did not see the need to listen to James White

 

[Silverhair]

But the implication then is that God is trying to use any means necessary to entice a person to believe, but in most cases, He can’t quite seem to get the job done.

He gets the job done, He provided the means to draw people to Himself but then it is up to the person to choose to trust in or reject Him. God does not do that for them.

 

[Silverhair]

I’m sure God uses many different methods to reveal Himself, whether it be through dreams, the preaching of the Gospel, or by reading Scripture.

That doesn’t negate the fact that a person’s heart needs to be changed first in order to respond positively to that revelation.

Ya the person has to change their heart form rejecting God to trusting in God. You seem to think God has to do it for them. If that were true then God is responsible for all those in hell that rejected Him as He could have changed their heart but chose not to even though His stated desire is for all to come to repentance.

So in order to fit the calvinist view either God lied or He is not powerful enough to over come the man's desire to reject Him. Or we could go with the biblical view that God has given man a free will with which to choose to either trust in Him or reject Him.

 

[Zaatar71]

Well it seems you have a hearing problem so I just copied out the text.

if somebody is in bondage they can still admit they're in bondage without being freed from the bondage
57:00
like an alcoholic for example and alcohol right and still be addicted to alcohol and say I'm addicted to alcohol
57:06
and I need to be checked into a rehab facility and submit to that without being freed from the addiction first and
57:11
in the same way I think that we can be still in bondage to sin but have the capacity to admit or
57:17
confess yeah we're I'm in bondage to sin and I need I need a Savior I need help and and therefore to be regenerated
57:24
through faith not you know pre faith regeneration

Listen to the rest of it SH, it goes for about 8 minutes... listen again

 

[Silverhair]

Listen to the rest of it SH, it goes for about 8 minutes... listen again

Why it is only James White what does he have to do with your comment on Flowers? Your trying to prove Flowers said something that proves he is a pelagian and that video does not support your case as the text from the video proves.

I gave you the text of Flowers words so show me where what he said proves your case.

Here it is again so you do not have to look for it

if somebody is in bondage they can still admit they're in bondage without being freed from the bondage
57:00
like an alcoholic for example and alcohol right and still be addicted to alcohol and say I'm addicted to alcohol
57:06
and I need to be checked into a rehab facility and submit to that without being freed from the addiction first and
57:11
in the same way I think that we can be still in bondage to sin but have the capacity to admit or
57:17
confess yeah we're I'm in bondage to sin and I need I need a Savior I need help and and therefore to be regenerated
57:24
through faith not you know pre faith regeneration

 

[Zaatar71]

Why it is only James White what does he have to do with your comment on Flowers? Your trying to prove Flowers said something that proves he is a pelagian and that video does not support your case as the text from the video proves.

I gave you the text of Flowers words so show me where what he said proves your case.

Here it is again so you do not have to look for it

if somebody is in bondage they can still admit they're in bondage without being freed from the bondage
57:00
like an alcoholic for example and alcohol right and still be addicted to alcohol and say I'm addicted to alcohol
57:06
and I need to be checked into a rehab facility and submit to that without being freed from the addiction first and
57:11
in the same way I think that we can be still in bondage to sin but have the capacity to admit or
57:17
confess yeah we're I'm in bondage to sin and I need I need a Savior I need help and and therefore to be regenerated
57:24
through faith not you know pre faith regeneration

listen to it again, the whole thing

 

[Silverhair]

listen to it again, the whole thing

And again why?

Did Flowers say something that proves your case? You have the transcript of his words so point out what he said that supports your claim.

It is obvious that you cannot so you try to deflect to what White said but his opinion is just that an opinion.

 

[DaveXR650]

Acts 17:24-29
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

It looks to me like Paul sees that the work of God in creation is enough to to bring them to believing, or else I don’t know what you think he means by finding God.

Ben, in my opinion, this supports what I was saying. Paul noticed they were honoring an "unknown God" that they indeed from creation and observation were able to go that far in seeking who that was. In that you are right. But notice that Paul goes on in verses 29 through 32 to give the necessary gospel truth that has to be revealed to men - that part they could not possibly know without the actual truth being directly revealed to them.

 

[DaveXR650]

Did Flowers say something that proves your case? You have the transcript of his words so point out what he said that supports your claim.

Sorry to butt in but yes, Flowers discussion seemingly at odds with Roger Olsen, who is a bonified Arminian theologian, does show Flowers goes further still. His view shows definite semi-Pelagianism and many say full blown Pelagianism. There are views like Arminianism, where there is prevenient grace given to everyone since Christ died so that now whoever hears the gospel is also given grace to believe. Flowers takes issue with that in the video and apparently believes that the information itself contained in the message is sufficient for man to then evaluate and decide to be saved. That is very common among Baptists though, and it might just be a majority position among Baptist laymen. I think that is the reason for Flowers popularity.