Imputed Righteousness

[JesusFan]

Do you really want to make it a conditional statement by saying that you can overpower and prevent God from pushing you off the bridge and falling into the water?

Did Paul really have a choice to say to the risen Lord Jesus"Thanks, but no thanks?"

 

[Charlie24]

The divine act of regeneration is what shatters the barrier of depravity; only then can someone who hears the Gospel truly call out to God. What you're claiming is traditionalism that began in Rome and, unfortunately, has made its way into Evangelical circles.

The truth is that the Son must liberate those who are bound by sin. Only after this liberation can they have the inherent desire to seek God within their new nature.

Matthew 1:21 (ESV)
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Jesus said that WILL save His people from their sins. Do you believe that what He promised is merely hypothetical and that His intentions can be obstructed by the will of the creature?

I enjoy having conversation with you, Brother. I feel I've found someone who will listen to the other side. That's a rare quality in this setting online!

You've hit on the subject that I believe is whole problem of our differences. Maybe not to others but it definitely is to me.

Your 1st paragraph on the barrier of depravity is what I'm talking about.

You place God regenerating the person as the act that breaks that barrier, which means that person did not hear and believe the Gospel before they were regenerated. The cart is before the mule in this scenario.

This is Hyper-Calvinism and I had hoped you were not one of them.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you really want to make it a conditional statement by saying that you can overpower and prevent God from pushing you off the bridge and falling into the water?

Who said anything about overpowering God but it still comes down to a condition even then. "IF" God pushed someone of a bridge into the water then they would get wet. The condition is "IF".

Even your question of whether I could overpower God is a condition. "IF" I could have overpowered God then He could not have pushed me into the water.

 

[Silverhair]

Did Paul really have a choice to say to the risen Lord Jesus"Thanks, but no thanks?"

Why not? Did Adam reject the command of God?

Do you really think Paul's free will was taken away?

What do you think Christ's comment "It is hard for you to kick against the goads" means in this context? Act 26:14

 

[Tea]

You place God regenerating the person as the act that breaks that barrier, which means that person did not hear and believe the Gospel before they were regenerated. The cart is before the mule in this scenario.

This is Hyper-Calvinism and I had hoped you were not one of them.

We both agree that some form of divine intervention is necessary to "awaken" fallen humanity, so to speak. You may view the Gospel as the means for that. However, in what way does it serve as the power of God for salvation?

Perhaps you believe that it as a power that is equally potent for all, but individuals have the option to resist that force. I view it as a power available only for those who can respond positively to it. Those who can respond positively to it find themselves unable to resist, as they have lost the desire to do so.

Regarding Hyper-Calvinism, I don't identify as one of them. I firmly believe in the universal invitation to repentance, but in the end, it's not my role to determine who God has enabled to embrace it.

 

[Tea]

Who said anything about overpowering God but it still comes down to a condition even then. "IF" God pushed someone of a bridge into the water then they would get wet. The condition is "IF".

Even your question of whether I could overpower God is a condition. "IF" I could have overpowered God then He could not have pushed me into the water.

You may not be aware of it, but you're going to great lengths to elevate the creature over the creator. If God has determined what's going to happen, then it will happen.

 

[Charlie24]

We both agree that some form of divine intervention is necessary to "awaken" fallen humanity, so to speak. You may view the Gospel as the means for that. However, in what way does it serve as the power of God for salvation?

Perhaps you believe that it as a power that is equally potent for all, but individuals have the option to resist that force. I view it as a power available only for those who can respond positively to it. Those who can respond positively to it find themselves unable to resist, as they have lost the desire to do so.

Regarding Hyper-Calvinism, I don't identify as one of them. I firmly believe in the universal invitation to repentance, but in the end, it's not my role to determine who God has enabled to embrace it.

The hearing of the Gospel is where the faith comes from. Remember Paul saying, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

The power of God in the hearing of the Gospel is the conviction of sin and judgment. Remember Christ saying He would leave and send the Comforter, and He would convict of sin and of judgment.

Without the Holy Spirit convicting the heart and soul of man through the hearing of the Gospel, no man could be saved.

I believe you will agree with me that salvation is all of the Lord, man plays no role in His Grace, man can only accept or reject what God has set in order for man to be saved before the foundation of the world. His plan of redemption by His Grace alone.

 

[Tea]

The hearing of the Gospel is where the faith comes from. Remember Paul saying, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God?

Agreed.

Remember Christ saying He would leave and send the Comforter, and He would convict of sin and of judgment.

A person may be convicted of their sin; however, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will ever want to repent of their sin.

I believe you will agree with me that salvation is all of the Lord, man plays no role in His Grace, man can only accept or reject what God has set in order for man to be saved before the foundation of the world.

The part I reject is the idea that a person's cooperation is the initial requirement that enables the Lord to save.

 

[Charlie24]

Agreed.



A person may be convicted of their sin; however, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will ever want to repent of their sin.



The part I reject is the idea that a person's cooperation is the initial requirement that enables the Lord to save.

Yes, we agree the conviction of sin doesn't mean one will repent, they have free will to choose.

We disagree on the cooperation part, this is where you lean to Calvinism and I reject it.

"Whosoever will" is what I read in Scripture many times.

God will not save anyone against their will, it must be a decision by the individual.

Total Depravity is where I see Calvin going wrong, that's where the theory begins and leads to the other 4 points.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, we agree the conviction of sin doesn't mean one will repent, they have free will to choose.

We disagree on the cooperation part, this is where you lean to Calvinism and I reject it.

"Whosoever will" is what I read in Scripture many times.

God will not save anyone against their will, it must be a decision by the individual.

Total Depravity is where I see Calvin going wrong, that's where the theory begins and leads to the other 4 points.

Let me clarify what I believe on total depravity.

Calvin see's man unable to respond to God, period. Thereby God chooses who will be saved.

I see man depraved, BUT, the Holy Spirit breaks through that depravity with the truth of the Gospel in convicting power and man is left with a choice.

 

[KenH]

From the very beginning salvation has always been justified by faith!

The Law of Moses pointed to Christ in the inability to be accepted by God in any other way.

If those under the Law were honest with themselves they knew they were guilty before God in doing their best.

That is what the Sacrificial System of the Law was for, they found forgiveness of sin in Slayed Lamb.

All of God's elect, those He chose before the world began, from Adam onward, have been saved by God's grace and God's grace alone. As the Bible says in Acts 13:39, no one can be justified by the law of Moses.

Justification has always been and will always be by the blood of Christ:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Charlie24]

All of God's elect, those He chose before the world began, from Adam onward, have been saved by God's grace and God's grace alone. As the Bible says in Acts 13:39, no one can be justified by the law of Moses.

Justification has always been and will always be by the blood of Christ:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Blood can do nothing for anyone unless they believe in what the Blood did.

"Being justified by His Blood" can only take place by faith.

 

[KenH]

"Being justified by His Blood" can only take place by faith.

All of God's elect come under the hearing of the gospel during their lifetime, and the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in the blood of Christ, His finished work on the behalf of God's elect.

So there is no possibility that the blood of Christ will fail to accomplish its purpose in the life of any of God's elect.

The God of the Bible never fails to achieve His desires, regardless of the claims of those who say that God does fail.

"This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]."

- excerpt from Is God a Failure?

 

[Charlie24]

All of God's elect come under the hearing of the gospel during their lifetime, and the Holy Spirit regenerates them and grants them the gift of faith in the blood of Christ, His finished work on the behalf of God's elect.

So there is no possibility that the blood of Christ will fail to accomplish its purpose in the life of any of God's elect.

The God of the Bible never fails to achieve His desires, regardless of the claims of those who say that God does fail.

"This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]."

- excerpt from Is God a Failur

My Bible says, "For God so loved the world He gave..." you can manipulate again and claim that to be only the elect, but only another Calvinist will agree with you.

I think God had someone to write down that "wimp thing" you mentioned.

 

[Tea]

We disagree on the cooperation part, this is where you lean to Calvinism and I reject it.

I want to reiterate once more that, without divine intervention, no one would ever cooperate. However, I am grateful that God decided to show mercy to some rather than allowing all of humanity to face the justice that we rightfully deserve.

"Whosoever will" is what I read in Scripture many times.

Yes, I understand that you seem to think that there's a universal invitation implied there. The "whosoever" in view are those who have been born anew, as stated in John 3:3.

God will not save anyone against their will, it must be a decision by the individual.

If God truly left it up to man to decide for themselves, every single one of us would choose to follow Satan.

 

[Charlie24]

I want to reiterate once more that, without divine intervention, no one would ever cooperate. However, I am grateful that God decided to show mercy to some rather than allowing all of humanity to face the justice that we rightfully deserve.



Yes, I understand that you seem to think that there's a universal invitation implied there. The "whosoever" in view are those who have been born anew, as stated in John 3:3.



If God truly left it up to man to decide for themselves, every single one of us would choose to follow Satan.

The Divine intervention is the Holy Spirit making the Gospel real in the heart of the hearer.

I mentioned several months ago on a thread that I have seen those in our Church service under the conviction of the Holy Spirit many times.

Some squirm in their seats and can't sit still, they begin wiping sweat from their foreheads under conviction from the Word of God.

I've them begin crying out loud uncontrollably, and come forward to the alter while the preacher was preaching his sermon. The preacher always points out a deacon who knows what to do, and he keeps on preaching not missing a beat while the deacon takes the person to a back room and deals with them from the Bible.

I've seen people angry with God (mostly at the preacher) during services and get up and walk out under conviction.

Our Church preaches Christ crucified for the sins of the world, and many can't handle it.

 

[Silverhair]

You may not be aware of it, but you're going to great lengths to elevate the creature over the creator. If God has determined what's going to happen, then it will happen.

Would you care to explain how you jump to that conclusion?

And my friend you are going to great lengths to avoid the reality that your deterministic philosophy leads to. If God determines all things as your calvinist view says then you have made God the author of all evil and sin.

Now does God determine some things, of course that is biblical. Example: the crucifixion.

Where the calvinists goes off the rails is when they require that He determines all things or else He could not be sovereign. Now that is just foolishness.

We were speaking of whether "IF" was conditional:
Deu 4:29 But if from there you will seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Jos 24:20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, He will turn and bring disaster on you and consume you, even after He has been good to you.”

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.