How about the paralyzed man in Luke 5:20? Man, your sins are forgiven you. Was he saved or not?
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When Understanding the Cross
- Thread starter JonC
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But your system (if I may call it that) does nothing to satisfy the justice of God. It does not allow God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. God gives ungodly people a new birth (I assume that's what you are talking about) and bingo! They have their Get out of Jail Free card. But what about their sins? Rev. 6:10. "How long, O Lord holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Under your system, God would be unjust.
But in fact, the Lord Jesus Christ has paid the penalty in full for all those whom God will save in His suffering and death upon the cross. 'Christ died for the ungodly' taking all their sins upon His sinless shoulders. 'There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.'
THEN, God gives new birth to those for whom Christ died. Then He will lead them in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake, and He will indeed be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.
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This is unclear as written, could you clarify? Are you saying, You are actually righteous?
The computer tells me this based on scripture;
AI Overview
Yes, the theological concept of imputed righteousness asserts that believers have Christ's righteousness legally credited to their account through faith, not by their own merit
. This means that when God looks at a believer, He sees them as righteous because He is imputing Jesus' perfect life and obedience to them, which allows for their justification and acceptance before Him.
How it works
- The Divine Exchange: The process is often described as a "divine exchange" where believers' sins are transferred to Christ, and in return, His righteousness is transferred to them.
- Basis in faith: This imputation is received through faith in Christ. The Bible states that "faith is credited as righteousness" for the one who believes in God, not because faith itself is the righteousness, but because faith unites the believer to Christ.
- Not an inherent righteousness: Imputed righteousness is not about believers becoming inherently righteous on their own. Instead, it's about God declaring them righteous based on Christ's work, which is then legally credited to their account.
Yes, I can.
Right now we are credited as being righteous by faith in Christ who wrought a "better covenant" in His blood and in accordance to that covenant who have faith in Christ are predestined to be made into His image, to be righteous, to be glorified.
At Judgment those who believe they will escape accountability for their actions by Christ having suffered that penalty and clothed them in His righteousness but are not actually made into Christ's image (actually made righteous, actually glorified) will hear "I never knew you" and experience the second death.
At Judgment those who stand before God in Christ's image will live. This is what Christ accomplished on the cross.
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37818
Well-Known Member
That becomes a denial of the cross. And what was finished before His physical death.
I do not think that @DaveXR650 was being serious (I think he was trying to mischaracterize those who disagree with his views). I have never heard of any school of thought in Christianity that views our salvation as being wrought by the Resurrection rather than the Cross.
But who knows...a bunch of people killed themselves to get on a spaceship behind a comit. I can only say, if @DaveXR650 was not just trying to mischaracterize his mistake is assuming such a school of thought as being within our faith.
@Zaatar71
I did this in two posts to first clarify my meaning (your first request) then address your questions. I thought it may be better for organization anyway.
There are many views of the Atonement (four primary views within our faith today) so it is good to understand each.
No, I do not believe the "divine exchange" as you define here.
I do believe Jesus suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
We are now credited with Christ's righteousness as He is the Guarantor of this better covenant.
I do not view this as a legal declaration but rather a covenant declaration (one's state within a covenant).
I also do not view this as an "account" issue (credited to one's account) as an accounting issue.
I believe that God has predestined us to be made in Christ's image, to be righteous, to be glorified, to be a new creation in Christ.
It is Christ's righteousness. But I believe that we are predestined to be made in His image (His righteousness will also be our righteousness).
I did this in two posts to first clarify my meaning (your first request) then address your questions. I thought it may be better for organization anyway.
There are many views of the Atonement (four primary views within our faith today) so it is good to understand each.
No, I do not believe the "divine exchange" as you define here.
I do believe Jesus suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
Yes, I believe this is true. This is the "better covenant". God is just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ. And Christ Himself is the Guarantor of this better covenant by which we can now be credited as righteous through faith.
No, I do not believe this.
We are now credited with Christ's righteousness as He is the Guarantor of this better covenant.
I do not view this as a legal declaration but rather a covenant declaration (one's state within a covenant).
I also do not view this as an "account" issue (credited to one's account) as an accounting issue.
I believe that God has predestined us to be made in Christ's image, to be righteous, to be glorified, to be a new creation in Christ.
It is Christ's righteousness. But I believe that we are predestined to be made in His image (His righteousness will also be our righteousness).
I am still not following this as written.
I asked , are you righteous?
While there is a better Covenant, that is not answering this issue.
I do not think I have ever seen this covenant in scripture!
I do read where those he he foreknows, are predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son....
But I no where see where any one has faith first, and then they are conformed to His image.
Again this is vague, and unclear? Who are these people? Who would believe Christ died for them, but somehow they will not be conformed to His Image? I have never heard of any such people!
This explantion is very confuisng.
My apology. I can explain another way.
Have you ever heard of a surety (in the US you may have heard "surety bond")?
A surety is a guarantee to a grantor that the receiver will meet the conditions of a contract. I view it this way because I believe we are dealing with a covenant.
God declares those who have faith in Jesus as righteous based on Christ Himself as the Surety of the covenant.
At Judgment we will be conformed to His image, so in the present He credits our faith as righteousness based on His righteousness.
In the present God credits my faith as righteousness (this is Christ's righteousness). But I am predestined to be conformed into His image. The only part of me that will survive is Him in me.
For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
This is getting closer to truth.
This is true if it is a God given faith.
This is murky....what is the source of this faith? You had it in and of yourself? Do natural men posses this faith? Or is such faith the gift of God?
The foreknown elect? Those who God foreknew?
I agree with you that Martin's position of sin being laid is problematic. Your view is more logical, but I do not believe it is correct.
What is the source of our faith?
It's there or it's not. I have not really thought about the source.
Does natural man possess a faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ? No, this is spiritual man.
Is faith a gift from God?
We have been saved through faith rather than works, and this salvation is a gift from God (Eph 2). I don't know if faith is a "gift" or produced as a response to God drawing us. Have not thought about it (it does not matter to me as long as it is present.
Do you believe that God views it as evil to comdemn a righteous man as if guilty as well as to clear or justify a wicked man?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
@37818. I appreciate your clarification. If @JonC could set aside his nastiness for a moment I'll explain what I meant. When John Stott, in his excellent book "The Cross of Christ" was talking about this and how the death of Christ and the resurrection must always be taught together he said this, with the emphasis in bold being mine:
"It would be seriously unbalanced to proclaim either the cross without the resurrection (as I am afraid Anselm did) or the resurrection without the cross (as do those who present Jesus as a living Lord rather than as an atoning Saviour)." John Stott
And so my concern in light of the mixed up things Jon is trying to convince people of that I noticed what Stott said next:
"For it was by his death, and not by his resurrection, that our sins were dealt with."
So I don't think my post warranted a stupid response like he did, but he is probably correct in that it is a mistake to think such a school of thought, where it is denied that "our sins were dealt with" would be within our faith.
I was not being nasty. I was simply saying that I have not heard of any school of thought in Christianity that views our salvation as being wrought by the Resurrection rather than the Cross.
I thought (and still think) you mentioned it here to be an insult because that was never expressed on this forum by any member.
I have repeatedly stayed that it was by Jesus' death that our sins were dealt with.
Nobody has stated it was by His resurrection rather than His death (although I think we all agree with Paul that our hope is in the Resurrection).
Why would you think it is "nasty" to assume your reply was relevant to the thread in which you posted rather than simply addressing some group John Stott may have encountered during his lifetime?
It does, if Jesus is the reconciliation of man and God. Christ suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
God is just. He will never punish the righteous, He will condemn the wicked.
God is the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You seem to be forgetting that the wicked are storing up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath.
There is a time in the future when God will judge the world. We call that Judgment.
We are predestined by God to be in the image of Christ at Judgment. God will not punish the righteous. The wicked will have the second death.
Martin Marprelate said:
It is a delight to see you quoting some Scripture for a change. Thank you. Will you explain, please, exactly what you understand by 'Christ suffered for sins once for all time'? How is this not God punishing the righteous? And what do you understand by 'for sins'?
You seem to be edging slowly closer the the doctrine of Penal Substitution, which is great! Will you please let me know exactly what your objections are to this statement of the doctrine which I have quoted many times on this board?
'The doctrine of penal substitution states that God gave Himself in the Person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin' [taken from Pierced for our Transgressions by Jeffrey, Ovey and Sach (IVP, 2007. ISBN 978-1-84474-178-6)]
Really?
One more time. 'For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.' Does that mean that God justifies the wicked? YES! 'For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.'
'He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up [to suffering and death] for us all, how will He not, with Him,
Indeed, but only on the basis of Christ's atoning death for the ungodly, otherwise God will not be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The post in question said that "it is finished" was said before Christ died. You then, who have been saying that those of us who believe in penal substitution are heretics gave it a "thumbs up", on the same thread. So I asked for clarification, which 37818 gave. And that was fine. Your reaction, along with your other posts, would indicate that you are going off in some strange directions. If you are not then that is good.
It would be totally ludicrous after all these posts for you to act now like you have been clear and simply misunderstood.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I just heard another "Christmas Sermon". As the child of a "Lily and Holly", I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for a pastor to preach about Christ and Salvation without using the analogy of monetary debt sooner or later. This time, it stirred a thought about this PSA debate and ATONEMENT THEORIES. So I wanted to embrace the monetary debt analogy and approach the question of atonement slightly differently.
PREMISE:
I am a degenerate gambler who owes an impossibly large monetary debt to [someone, everyone, a bank, a loan shark]. The "monetary debt" is a placeholder for "sin" and to whom it is owed is irrelevant to this thought experiment. I have sinned and there is a debt is a given for this discussion.
SALVATION:
The "Preacher" stories are full of tales of "somebody comes forward to pay the debt you could not pay". OK, let's skip over that part. The DEBT has been dealt with (Jesus blood covered my sin).
A KNOCK ON THE DOOR:
So now there is a knock on my door and [somebody] is demanding payment of the debt. Perhaps it is a Police Officer from the Bank of "God's Justice" or perhaps it is a Repo-Man representing the "powers and principalities and rulers of this dark age". I run to the desk where I keep the folder with "IMPORTANT PAPERS" to present my PROOF that the debt has been settled.
A. Do I present a BILL for the debt, stamped "PAID IN FULL" in the blood of Christ proving that someone else has paid the debt that I owed?
B. Do I present a DEATH CERTIFICATE with my name on it and a BIRTH CERTIFICATE sealed by GOD proving that I am a new person and not the person that they are looking for?
Both documents are legally binding to remove the debt from me. If the debt is paid, nobody can collect a second time on a paid debt. Under the law, a debt is only binding on a person while they are alive. You cannot collect a debt from someone else.
So which does GOD use to eliminate the debt?
Are we FREE because JESUS PAID, or are we FREE because JESUS made us a NEW CREATION?
Which removed us from "the world" and made us children of "the Father"?
PREMISE:
I am a degenerate gambler who owes an impossibly large monetary debt to [someone, everyone, a bank, a loan shark]. The "monetary debt" is a placeholder for "sin" and to whom it is owed is irrelevant to this thought experiment. I have sinned and there is a debt is a given for this discussion.
SALVATION:
The "Preacher" stories are full of tales of "somebody comes forward to pay the debt you could not pay". OK, let's skip over that part. The DEBT has been dealt with (Jesus blood covered my sin).
A KNOCK ON THE DOOR:
So now there is a knock on my door and [somebody] is demanding payment of the debt. Perhaps it is a Police Officer from the Bank of "God's Justice" or perhaps it is a Repo-Man representing the "powers and principalities and rulers of this dark age". I run to the desk where I keep the folder with "IMPORTANT PAPERS" to present my PROOF that the debt has been settled.
A. Do I present a BILL for the debt, stamped "PAID IN FULL" in the blood of Christ proving that someone else has paid the debt that I owed?
B. Do I present a DEATH CERTIFICATE with my name on it and a BIRTH CERTIFICATE sealed by GOD proving that I am a new person and not the person that they are looking for?
Both documents are legally binding to remove the debt from me. If the debt is paid, nobody can collect a second time on a paid debt. Under the law, a debt is only binding on a person while they are alive. You cannot collect a debt from someone else.
So which does GOD use to eliminate the debt?
Are we FREE because JESUS PAID, or are we FREE because JESUS made us a NEW CREATION?
Which removed us from "the world" and made us children of "the Father"?
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