When Understanding the Cross

[Martin Marprelate]

When God judges the world, those trusting that righteousness is credited to them rather than actually being righteous will experience the "second death".

How about the paralyzed man in Luke 5:20? Man, your sins are forgiven you. Was he saved or not?

 

[JonC]

How about the paralyzed man in Luke 5:20? Man, your sins are forgiven you. Was he saved or not?

Yes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The reason you committed a fallacy (a false dichotomy) is the conditions can actually be met without God becoming guilty of committing an abomination.

God will not justify the wicked.
God will not punish the righteous as if guilty


God will not justify the wicked.

We are now bearing His righteousness, God lays His righteousness on us. But we are not now standing before God at judgment.

God predestined us to be conformed to Christ's image, to be justified, to be glorified. This will happen.

God will punish the wicked...ALL of the wicked.

God will never punish the righteous (God is just).

But your system (if I may call it that) does nothing to satisfy the justice of God. It does not allow God to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. God gives ungodly people a new birth (I assume that's what you are talking about) and bingo! They have their Get out of Jail Free card. But what about their sins? Rev. 6:10. "How long, O Lord holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Under your system, God would be unjust.
But in fact, the Lord Jesus Christ has paid the penalty in full for all those whom God will save in His suffering and death upon the cross. 'Christ died for the ungodly' taking all their sins upon His sinless shoulders. 'There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.'

THEN, God gives new birth to those for whom Christ died. Then He will lead them in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake, and He will indeed be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

 

[Zaatar71]

When God judges the world, those trusting that righteousness is credited to them rather than actually being righteous will experience the "second death".

This is unclear as written, could you clarify? Are you saying, You are actually righteous?
The computer tells me this based on scripture;
AI Overview
Yes, the theological concept of imputed righteousness asserts that believers have Christ's righteousness legally credited to their account through faith, not by their own merit
. This means that when God looks at a believer, He sees them as righteous because He is imputing Jesus' perfect life and obedience to them, which allows for their justification and acceptance before Him.
How it works

• The Divine Exchange: The process is often described as a "divine exchange" where believers' sins are transferred to Christ, and in return, His righteousness is transferred to them.
• Basis in faith: This imputation is received through faith in Christ. The Bible states that "faith is credited as righteousness" for the one who believes in God, not because faith itself is the righteousness, but because faith unites the believer to Christ.
• Not an inherent righteousness: Imputed righteousness is not about believers becoming inherently righteous on their own. Instead, it's about God declaring them righteous based on Christ's work, which is then legally credited to their account.

Do you disagree with this?

 

[JonC]

This is unclear as written, could you clarify?

Yes, I can.

Right now we are credited as being righteous by faith in Christ who wrought a "better covenant" in His blood and in accordance to that covenant who have faith in Christ are predestined to be made into His image, to be righteous, to be glorified.

At Judgment those who believe they will escape accountability for their actions by Christ having suffered that penalty and clothed them in His righteousness but are not actually made into Christ's image (actually made righteous, actually glorified) will hear "I never knew you" and experience the second death.

At Judgment those who stand before God in Christ's image will live. This is what Christ accomplished on the cross.

 

[37818]

That's fine. My only concern was that there is a school of thought that views the resurrection as saving us and not the cross.

That becomes a denial of the cross. And what was finished before His physical death.

 

[JonC]

That becomes a denial of the cross. And what was finished before His physical death.

I do not think that @DaveXR650 was being serious (I think he was trying to mischaracterize those who disagree with his views). I have never heard of any school of thought in Christianity that views our salvation as being wrought by the Resurrection rather than the Cross.

But who knows...a bunch of people killed themselves to get on a spaceship behind a comit. I can only say, if @DaveXR650 was not just trying to mischaracterize his mistake is assuming such a school of thought as being within our faith.

 

[JonC]

@Zaatar71

I did this in two posts to first clarify my meaning (your first request) then address your questions. I thought it may be better for organization anyway.

There are many views of the Atonement (four primary views within our faith today) so it is good to understand each.

The Divine Exchange: The process is often described as a "divine exchange" where believers' sins are transferred to Christ, and in return, His righteousness is transferred to them.

No, I do not believe the "divine exchange" as you define here.

I do believe Jesus suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

Basis in faith: This imputation is received through faith in Christ. The Bible states that "faith is credited as righteousness" for the one who believes in God, not because faith itself is the righteousness, but because faith unites the believer to Christ.

Yes, I believe this is true. This is the "better covenant". God is just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ. And Christ Himself is the Guarantor of this better covenant by which we can now be credited as righteous through faith.

Not an inherent righteousness: Imputed righteousness is not about believers becoming inherently righteous on their own. Instead, it's about God declaring them righteous based on Christ's work, which is then legally credited to their account.

No, I do not believe this.

We are now credited with Christ's righteousness as He is the Guarantor of this better covenant.

I do not view this as a legal declaration but rather a covenant declaration (one's state within a covenant).

I also do not view this as an "account" issue (credited to one's account) as an accounting issue.

I believe that God has predestined us to be made in Christ's image, to be righteous, to be glorified, to be a new creation in Christ.

It is Christ's righteousness. But I believe that we are predestined to be made in His image (His righteousness will also be our righteousness).

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes, I can.

I am still not following this as written.

Right now we are credited as being righteous by faith in Christ

I asked , are you righteous?

who wrought a "better covenant" in His blood

While there is a better Covenant, that is not answering this issue.

and in accordance to that covenant who have faith in Christ are predestined to be made into His image,

I do not think I have ever seen this covenant in scripture!
I do read where those he he foreknows, are predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son....
But I no where see where any one has faith first, and then they are conformed to His image.

to be righteous, to be glorified.

At Judgment those who believe they will escape accountability for their actions by Christ having suffered that penalty and clothed them in His righteousness but are not actually made into Christ's image

Again this is vague, and unclear? Who are these people? Who would believe Christ died for them, but somehow they will not be conformed to His Image? I have never heard of any such people!

(actually made righteous, actually glorified) will hear "I never knew you" and experience the second death.

At Judgment those who stand before God in Christ's image will live. This is what Christ accomplished on the cross.

This explantion is very confuisng.

 

[JonC]

I am still not following this as written.

My apology. I can explain another way.

Have you ever heard of a surety (in the US you may have heard "surety bond")?

A surety is a guarantee to a grantor that the receiver will meet the conditions of a contract. I view it this way because I believe we are dealing with a covenant.

God declares those who have faith in Jesus as righteous based on Christ Himself as the Surety of the covenant.

At Judgment we will be conformed to His image, so in the present He credits our faith as righteousness based on His righteousness.

I asked , are you righteous?

In the present God credits my faith as righteousness (this is Christ's righteousness). But I am predestined to be conformed into His image. The only part of me that will survive is Him in me.

For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Zaatar71]

My apology. I can explain another way.

Have you ever heard of a surety (in the US you may have heard "surety bond")?

A surety is a guarantee to a grantor that the receiver will meet the conditions of a contract. I view it this way because I believe we are dealing with a covenant.

God declares those who have faith in Jesus as righteous based on Christ Himself as the Surety of the covenant.

This is getting closer to truth.

At Judgment we will be conformed to His image, so in the present He credits our faith as righteousness based on His righteousness.

This is true if it is a God given faith.

In the present God credits my faith as righteousness (this is Christ's righteousness).

This is murky....what is the source of this faith? You had it in and of yourself? Do natural men posses this faith? Or is such faith the gift of God?

But I am predestined to be conformed into His image. The only part of me that will survive is Him in me.

For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The foreknown elect? Those who God foreknew?

 

[JonC]

what is the source of this faith? You had it in and of yourself? Do natural men posses this faith? Or is such faith the gift of God?

What is the source of our faith?
That is an odd question as faith itself, in anything, is a response to the object of that faith. So ultimately the source of any faith would be what that faith is in.

God is the source of this faith.

Does natural man possess a faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

We are not born with a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, if that is what you are asking. Natural man has a mind that is set on the flesh.

Is faith a gift from God?

This is a murky question (borrowing from ya). Faith cannot be a gift (by definition). But we have been saved through faith rather than works, and this salvation is a gift from God (Eph 2).

The elect are those foreknown in Christ (in the Elect of God).

To put it together in a more coherent statement- God draws men to Himself and saves us through faith rather than works as a gift from God.

 

[JonC]

This is getting closer to truth.

Do you believe that God views it as evil to comdemn a righteous man as if guilty as well as to clear or justify a wicked man?

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not think that @DaveXR650 was being serious (I think he was trying to mischaracterize those who disagree with his views). I have never heard of any school of thought in Christianity that views our salvation as being wrought by the Resurrection rather than the Cross.

But who knows...a bunch of people killed themselves to get on a spaceship behind a comit. I can only say, if @DaveXR650 was not just trying to mischaracterize his mistake is assuming such a school of thought as being within our faith.

@37818. I appreciate your clarification. If @JonC could set aside his nastiness for a moment I'll explain what I meant. When John Stott, in his excellent book "The Cross of Christ" was talking about this and how the death of Christ and the resurrection must always be taught together he said this, with the emphasis in bold being mine:
"It would be seriously unbalanced to proclaim either the cross without the resurrection (as I am afraid Anselm did) or the resurrection without the cross (as do those who present Jesus as a living Lord rather than as an atoning Saviour)." John Stott
And so my concern in light of the mixed up things Jon is trying to convince people of that I noticed what Stott said next:
"For it was by his death, and not by his resurrection, that our sins were dealt with."

So I don't think my post warranted a stupid response like he did, but he is probably correct in that it is a mistake to think such a school of thought, where it is denied that "our sins were dealt with" would be within our faith.