KenH
Well-Known Member
So are saying that Romans 8:33 means, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Christ Jesus?"
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If God is Not Sovereign, Then There is No Grace
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
So are saying that Romans 8:33 means, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Christ Jesus?"
If God chooses who will be saved, what was the purpose of the atonement in that as John said, He is the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world?
How can He be that satisfaction for "all" sin if God selects man and leaves the rest in their sin to perish?
Ascetic X
Active Member
Hyper-Calvinists seem to contradict their theory on the elect if they support missions or engage in any type of evangelism, sharing their faith, or giving their testimony. They would never pray for the salvation of anyone, even family members, since it is all pre-determined.
A core hyper Calvinist tenet is denying that the natural, unregenerate person has a biblical duty to repent and believe the Gospel.
They question the benevolent universal offer of Christ to all, believing the Gospel call isn't truly for everyone, but only to the elect, the already chosen ones, the pre-destined lucky folks.
I wonder how often, when proclaiming the gospel to someone, the Holy Spirit tells them to stop, because that person is not elect.
Dr. John Gill and John Brine, were among the ablest and most influential hyper-Calvinist theologians. They would not allow that the gospel was good news to sinners as such, nor that it pertained directly to anyone, except sinners who had already been brought to feel their need of it.
They denied the existence of any offer of salvation in the gospel, not even to the elect, but that it was purely a revelation and declaration of salvation for the elect alone. It was a salvation for them; they had been chosen by God to receive it; it had been won for them by Christ, and to them only the Holy Spirit would apply it.
Those non-elect who have heard the declaration of the gospel and ultimately are lost, are not condemned because of their failure to believe spiritually and savingly in Christ, since it was never possible for them anyway. These are Gill's own words.
Thus, a hyper-Calvinist should preach, “Come to Christ for eternal life, if you are elect. Otherwise, ignore this message. I’m only speaking to the pre-chosen ones.”
The individual has no need or ability to repent and believe in Christ, according to hyper-Calvinists, because God does all that within the souls of the pre-destined persons.
I guess John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. were wasting their time preaching “repent and believe” to the people.
A core hyper Calvinist tenet is denying that the natural, unregenerate person has a biblical duty to repent and believe the Gospel.
They question the benevolent universal offer of Christ to all, believing the Gospel call isn't truly for everyone, but only to the elect, the already chosen ones, the pre-destined lucky folks.
I wonder how often, when proclaiming the gospel to someone, the Holy Spirit tells them to stop, because that person is not elect.
Dr. John Gill and John Brine, were among the ablest and most influential hyper-Calvinist theologians. They would not allow that the gospel was good news to sinners as such, nor that it pertained directly to anyone, except sinners who had already been brought to feel their need of it.
They denied the existence of any offer of salvation in the gospel, not even to the elect, but that it was purely a revelation and declaration of salvation for the elect alone. It was a salvation for them; they had been chosen by God to receive it; it had been won for them by Christ, and to them only the Holy Spirit would apply it.
Those non-elect who have heard the declaration of the gospel and ultimately are lost, are not condemned because of their failure to believe spiritually and savingly in Christ, since it was never possible for them anyway. These are Gill's own words.
Thus, a hyper-Calvinist should preach, “Come to Christ for eternal life, if you are elect. Otherwise, ignore this message. I’m only speaking to the pre-chosen ones.”
The individual has no need or ability to repent and believe in Christ, according to hyper-Calvinists, because God does all that within the souls of the pre-destined persons.
I guess John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc. were wasting their time preaching “repent and believe” to the people.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible teaches that Christ died for His sheep, not the goats. He is the expiated the sins of the sheep, not the goats.
The "all" means all of God's elect, Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews.
No, you are not following, Ken.
There are dozens of Scripture verses that must be ignored for your theory to be true.
Have you ever read John 3:16?
The Calvinist Handbook has perverted the definition of "world" in that verse to keep their theory alive.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You do have a point there and while I like Calvinist theology I admit that that is where I draw the line too. Even the high Calvinist John Owen said that whenever Christ is preached it is accompanied by an invitation to come to Christ. And he had it on authority of scripture that if you come to Christ he will not turn you away.
The offer of the gospel is real and genuine to everyone who hears it, regardless of how our philosophical musings go about who are the elect and how they got to be elect.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I ignore none of the Scriptures.
Yes, I have read the entire Bible.
"World" was telling the Jews in John 3:16 that the gospel of Christ was for the Gentiles, as well as the Jews.
So God created Adam, determined him to sin and be separated from God.
Throwing all of humanity into a curse.
Are you sure you understand what the sovereignty of God entails.?
So Jesus blood actually covers the sins of literally all mankind? If so, thats universalism
It doesnt matter if they believe or not. Their sins are covered
No they're not! There is a condition to met to benefit from the atonement of Christ.
Man must choose to do this,
Rom. 10:9-10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Notice the IF.
Ascetic X
Active Member
I think it is similar if I put a huge pile of trillions of dollars on my front porch, with a sign that said, “All your bills and needs have been covered by this pile of cash. Come and get it, everybody. Do not miss this great opportunity.”
But only those who actually show up and grab some loot will benefit from the pile. Anybody can have their bills and needs covered. No one will be turned away. The pile is free and for all, not just for who I choose to help.
So the blood of Jesus to cover sins is universalism as far as who the offer is given to, but not in its effects regarding specific individuals.
Not a problem w if
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14. Our hearts are changed before we call upon the name of the Lord. Thats how we call upon Him.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14. Our hearts are changed before we call upon the name of the Lord. Thats how we call upon Him.
John 1:13 “not by the will of man”
Go back to the previous verse where John says, "even to those who believe on His name."
Then John says, "Which were born, not of blood."
They who believed could not become God's own by a natural birth.
"Nor the will of the flesh" man cannot be saved by the works of the flesh.
"Nor the will of man" no effort of man can save him.
"But of God" salvation is all of God and none of man.
Ascetic X
Active Member
So we call upon the Lord to save us only when our hearts are already changed and therefore we are already saved? Makes no sense, like saying we get saved before we repent. Makes repentance irrelevant.
It’s a shame that the many times the scriptures said “all” regarding the offer of salvation, it should have said “the elect”!
I Timothy 2:3,4,5
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
Who will have ALL men (people) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just as the bible says; by grace you have been saved through faith.
Those that have believed in Him will be saved. That is election.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You wanted to deflect from John 12:32 and what "all" means in that text so you jump to another verse in the attempt to support your odd view.
You seem to have a real problem with context Ken.
What does Luk 2:1 have to do with John 12:32 except that the word "all" is found in both verses.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Not what the verse says @Marooncat79.
Reading things in context would help you understand the verse.
om 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent?
We are being told that those that hear and freely respond to the message presented will be saved. The person responds with faith because they have chosen to do so, not because God causes them to do so.
Ascetic X
Active Member
If it is God who changes a person into a saved soul before they repent, thus enabling them to repent and trust in Christ, yet repentance is not needed because they are already changed and saved…
What a tangled mess of misinterpretation.
An unsaved person could say on judgment day, “I did not repent and trust in Christ, only because God did not change my heart to enable me to repent. So it is clearly not my fault. I blame God for not changing me against my own will or inclination. Repenting is impossible if God doesn’t do it for me within my soul.”
But in reality, the unsaved person can only say, “I heard the gospel and rejected it. I loved darkness and avoided the light. I refused to let go of my favorite sins. So my unsaved state is entirely my own fault.”
Thus, the truth is, when a person is convicted of their sin, and repents, then God can put the new nature of Christ’s Spirit into them. The saved person has to allow God to work within them, to will and to do of His good pleasure. They choose to take up their cross, renew their mind, obey the Word, and grow into spiritual maturity.