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Penal Substitution Atonement (explain and discuss)

DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
No, PSA does not fit the model. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness. You have minimalized sin. (You present the Father as taking our sins from us, punishing them on Jesus, as if that cleansed us). Sin is more substantial than your theory allows.
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You can keep saying that, even though it violates you own premise of the thread which was not to be a thread for destroying PSA. Nevertheless, I would honestly not have expected anything else at this point. I really don't see how someone who holds to PSA would not be blessed by Psalm 103, any less so than someone who believes God had tricked Satan or paid him a ransom.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
kyredneck said:
You meant:

"Christ's blood cleanses from all unrighteousness."

Was His blood retroactive to the OT saints?
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Lol...yes. It is applicable via faith, so yes. It was by His blood man was reconciled to God and Jesus is this reconciliation. God passed over the sins of the OT saints until man was reconciled to Him in Christ so He would be just and the justifier of those who have faith in Him.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
DaveXR650 said:
You can keep saying that, even though it violates you own premise of the thread which was not to be a thread for destroying PSA. Nevertheless, I would honestly not have expected anything else at this point. I really don't see how someone who holds to PSA would not be blessed by Psalm 103, any less so than someone who believes God had tricked Satan or paid him a ransom.
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I did not say this wouldn't be a thread destroying PSA. I said it would not be a place to argue different theories.

It is fair to note that out of all the positions PSA is the one that treats sin the most superficial (Satisfaction Atonement and Substitution Atonement treat sin too lightly, but not as bad as PSA).
 
Salty

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
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Six hour warning - This thread will be closed no sooner than 0800 GMT Sun 2 am EST (Sun) / 11 pm PST (Sat)
 
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Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
It is fair to note that out of all the positions PSA is the one that treats sin the most superficial (Satisfaction Atonement and Substitution Atonement treat sin too lightly, but not as bad as PSA).
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This would only be true in some starnge "Alice through the Looking Glass" world, where everything is the opposite of what is true.
In fact PSA is the one doctrine that treats sin with the seriousness with which God treats it. It is also very, very simple, unless one is determined to complicate it.
'He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities.' He we have Penal Substitution at its simplest. We deserved to be pierced; we deserved to be crushed; that should have been the penalty for our sin; but that punishment was instead willingly taken by the Lord Jesus Christ. He was our substitute. 'By His wounds we are healed.'
There was none other good enough
To pay the price of sin.
He only, could unlock the gate
Of heaven and let us in.
Or as a medieval hymnwriter puts it:
Mine, mine was the transgression,
But Thine the deadly wound.' [I added that just to show that the doctrine of Penal Substitution was alive and well before the Reformation]

The Lord Jesus, '...Poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many.' And this was not just some random bloke plucked off the street; this was God the Son - the sinless One numbered with the transgressors, bearing their sin. The seriousness with which God treats sin could not be more clearly shown that in Penal Substitution.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Martin Marprelate said:
This would only be true...
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No, it is true. The reason is PSA is the only view that considers man to be reconciled to God via the Father punishing sins. Every other view considers sin to be a greater problem. PSA holds a very superficial view of sin.

Sin is much greater a problem than you are willing at admit. And the blood of Christ is a greater power than you are willing to acknowledge.

The fact is PSA is an easy believism doctrine not found in the biblical text. It treats sin too lightly. It looks to Christ too minimally. PSA theorists like it because it is simplistic, fits their humanistic mindset, and makes little demands of them.
 
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Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
No, it is true. The reason is PSA is the only view that considers man to be reconciled to God via the Father punishing sins. Every other view considers sin to be a greater problem. PSA holds a very superficial view of sin.

Sin is much greater a problem than you are willing at admit. And the blood of Christ is a greater power than you are willing to acknowledge.

The fact is PSA is an easy believism doctrine not found in the biblical text. It treats sin too lightly. It looks to Christ too minimally. PSA theorists like it because it is simplistic, fits their humanistic mindset, and makes little demands of them.
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You just make this stuff up as you go along. The fact that sin could only be dealt with by the precious blood of the Son of God, shows just how great a problem it is. If there had been any other way to redeem guilty sinners, you may be sure that God would have chosen that rather than the way of the cross.
 
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Martin Marprelate

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Site Supporter
Another quotation from John Owen, this time from Meditations on the Glory of Christ.
'How glorious the Lord Jesus Christ is in the eyes of believers! When Adam sinned, he stood ashamed , afraid, trembling, as one ready to perish for ever under the severe displeasure of God. Deathwas what he deserved, and he fully expected the sentence to be immediately carried out. In this state, the Lord Christ in the promise [of Gen. 3:15. M.M.] comes to him, and says, "Poor creature! How terrible is your conditon! How deformed you are now! What has become of the beauty, the glory of that image of God in which you were created? See how you have taken upon yourself the monstrous shape and image of Satan!
And yet your present sorrow, your physical return to dust and darkness, is in no way to be compared with what is to follow. Eternal distress lies before you. But now, look up and behold Me, and you will have a glimpse of what infinite wisdom, love and grace have determined for you> Do not continue to hide from Me. I will take your place. I will bear your guilt and suffer that punishment which would sink you eternally into the hideous depths of hell. I will pay for what I never took. I will be made a curse for you so that you may be eternally blessed." In the same vein the Lord Christ speaks to all convicted sinners when He invites them to come to Him.
This is how the Lord Christ is presented in the Gospel as evidently crucified' before our eyes (Gal. 3:1). This is how the glory of His sufferings shine forth.' [Taken from The Glory of Christ by John Owen, abridged and simplified by R.J.K. Law. Banner of Truth, 1994]
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Martin Marprelate said:
There are several, but the simplest is the holiness of God. Psalm 5:4-6. Another is to promote the fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom. Deut. 6:1-2; Acts 5:11.
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No. God is holy, and God's holiness is indeed half of the readon punishment is inflicted. But it is not the purpose Scripture gives for punishing the wicked.

Another hint - it is in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, all four gospels, and in both of Paul's letters to the Corinthians.


So yes, a reason God punished sin is that He is holy BUT what is the PURPOSE of this punishment per Scripture?


Simple question all Christians should be able to easily answer, but one that typically evades PSA theorists.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Martin Marprelate

This shouldn't be do hard for you.

Another hint - in addition to about every chapter of Deuteronomy, all four gospels, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Exodus, Genesis, Ezekiel, Romans, Revelation 1-4, 1st and 2nd Peter, and Leviticus you can turn to Isaiah. Read Isaiah 1, 44, and 57.


God is holy and He will punish the wicked because of His holiness. BUT what is the PURPOSE of this punishment?
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
You just make this stuff up as you go along. The fact that sin could only be dealt with by the precious blood of the Son of God, shows just how great a problem it is. If there had been any other way to redeem guilty sinners, you may be sure that God would have chosen that rather than the way of the cross.
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Yes he does. The whole thing is an embarrassment to BB, especially the way threads are done and the fact they let Jon continue to get away with this.
 
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