Annihilation

[easternstar]

The Scripture is replete with support for the doctrine of Conditional Immortality/Annihilation.
Perhaps it is not 100% without any doubt whatsoever: But a Biblical case can easily be made for it.

There is early church support for Universalism, Annihilation and Eternal Conscious Torment.

The problem with reading the Early Church Fathers is that we tend to read into what they say our assumptions about what they mean. They don't use the Theological buzz-words we use because they didn't exist. They simply used Biblical terminology. We often make assumptions about what the ECF's meant because they are simply quoting the same passages we quote when we assert our viewpoints. We see them quote the same verse we quote and assume they mean the same thing we mean.
It is a near certainty that annihilationism was asserted in the ECF's........... (long before Arnobius of Sicca.)

Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: The Doctrine of Eternal Torment Was Not Universal in the Early Church | Rethinking Hell

Many people incorrectly believe that, save for a few nut jobs, cults, and liberals who don't care about the Bible, Christians of all stripes have always

rethinkinghell.com

Thanks for your post, and the link. This is one of the best articles I've read on the subject -- excellent.

 

[Some Rando]

Thanks for your post, and the link. This is one of the best articles I've read on the subject -- excellent.

Thanks, I agree it is a good article and honestly written.
The article points out that (amongst other things) both Tertullian and Augustine were making arguments against various Churchmen teaching annihilation and even Universalism. This is itself proof that the doctrine was being held by Christians in the Early Church even if we didn't have the writings themselves, it decidedly predates Arnobius. The dirty little secret is that many teachers who believe in ECT know this full well and still tell their congregations/listeners that Arnobius was the first to teach it.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Anybody see any scriptural and/or early church support for it?

Yes. I even wrote a book on the subject with such references in it.

 

[GentleGospeller]

@easternstar, did you want a link to a free PDF of it (book)?

 

[Oseas3]

JESUS left crystal clear, saying:

Anybody see any scriptural and/or early church support for it?

Genesis 19: 24-27:
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And He overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the INHABITANTS of the cities, and that which grew (EVEN BABIES) upon the ground.
27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:
28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a FURNACE. ->(Where are the SOULS and SPIRITS of the INHABITANTS of the Sodom, and Gomorrah? The FIRE that was set on Sodom and Gomorrah continues throughout time and space; it is inextinguishable, you understand? Yeah, unquenchable).
Around two thousand years(2000)after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lord JESUS said: Luke 16:23-24 & 27-29 :->23 The rich man being in Hades, he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and the beggar named Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED in this flame-(IN THIS FIRE). -> 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Jude 1:7 -> Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (unquenchable) FIRE.

The FIRE that was set on Sodom and Gomorrah continues throughout time and space; it is inextinguishable, you understand? Yeah, unquenchable. -> LUKE 17:28-30 :-> 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day (IN THIS SEVENTH AND LAST DAY, OR SEVENTH AND LAST MILLENNIUM) when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day(IN THIS DAY), he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Be prepared or else get ready -> Matthew 25:6-10.

 

[Ben1445]

Is. 40:2
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished,
that her iniquity is pardoned:
for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

An example of receiving more judgement from the Lord than what is called equal.

 

[Oseas3]

Looking at recent events and speaking of Trump, Xi Jinping, and Putin (these are the main ones currently), and speaking of all rulers of nations like them, what I must announce to the world through the Word of GOD is that: -> all the PROJECTS they intend to build upon what they have potentially already built gigantically in the world will be frustrated; -> yes, what I must announce to the WORLD as a whole through the Word of GOD is that THE HOPE OF THE HYPOCRITES WILL BE FRUSTRATED;->Job 8:13-14:-> 13... the hypocrite's hope shall perish: 14 Whose hope shall be cut off (frustrated), and whose trust shall be a spider's web. ->says the Lord by His Word, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, Self-Executable, undersdtand? -> By the way, the hypocrites in heart heap WRATH for themselves, understand? Job 36:12-14 13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up WRATH: ... 14 They die...and their life is among the unclean. 12 ... they shall perish by the Sword(by the Word of GOD-Hebrews 4:12-13), and they shall die without knowledge. -> Remember, our Lord JESUS left crystal clear, saying: -> Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear GOD which is able to destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell. ->(Eternal perdition-Daniel 12:1-3, among many other biblical references).--> Psalms 9:17->The wicked shall be TURNED into hell, and all the NATIONS that forget GOD. Psalms 9 9 I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works. 2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will sing praise to thy name, O thou most High. 3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence. 4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right. 5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. 6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. 7 But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. 8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9 The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. 10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 11 Sing praises to the Lord, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 13 Have mercy upon me, O Lord; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death: 14 That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation. 15 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. 16 The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. 18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever. 19 Arise, O Lord; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight. 20 Put them in fear, O Lord: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah. Psalms 7:11: -> GOD Judgeth the righteous, and GOD is angry with the wicked every Day. ->(Every or each millennium. By the way, we are living exactly in the turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium. Be prepared, or else get ready->Matthew 25:10, take a look). Psalms 149 ->(combined with Daniel 7:22&26-27 and Revelation 11:15-18, take a look) 1 Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise in the congregation of saints. 2 Let Israel rejoice in Him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. 3 Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. 4 For the Lord taketh pleasure in His people:He will beautify the meek with salvation.->(Matthew 5:5, take a look) 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of GOD be in their MOUTH, and a two-edged Sword in their hand; ->(Hebrews 4:12-13) 7 To EXECUTE vengeance upon the heathen, and PUNISHMENTS upon the people; (Revelation 11:6 and verses 15 to 18, take a look). 8 To bind their kings with chains,and their nobles with fetters of iron;-> (Revelation 2:25 to 29, take a look) 9 To EXECUTE upon them the Judgment WRITTEN: this HONOUR have all his saints.-> (1Corinthians 6:2-3 combined with Daniel 2:44-47, among other biblical references). Praise ye the Lord. Amen. The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, GOD Father, Self-executing, Self-executable, Father of my Lord JESUS Christ,->the Word made flesh in One, and our Father; GOD is Life, Eternal Life, the bread of Life, the bread of heaven, the heavenly manna, the bread of angels, understand? ->1Corinthians 10:1-12 combined with Luke 20:35-36, take a look. HOW CAN THE MEEK INHERIT THE EARTH? | Friends Of Jesus The LORD said: Matthew 5:v.5 combined with Revelation 5:v.10 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mat.5.v.5 And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign friendsofjesus.proboards.com ​

 

[Some Rando]

JESUS left crystal clear, saying:


Genesis 19: 24-27:
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
25 And He overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the INHABITANTS of the cities, and that which grew (EVEN BABIES) upon the ground.
27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:
28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a FURNACE. ->(Where are the SOULS and SPIRITS of the INHABITANTS of the Sodom, and Gomorrah? The FIRE that was set on Sodom and Gomorrah continues throughout time and space; it is inextinguishable, you understand? Yeah, unquenchable).
Around two thousand years(2000)after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lord JESUS said: Luke 16:23-24 & 27-29 :->23 The rich man being in Hades, he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and the beggar named Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED in this flame-(IN THIS FIRE). -> 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Jude 1:7 -> Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (unquenchable) FIRE.

The FIRE that was set on Sodom and Gomorrah continues throughout time and space; it is inextinguishable, you understand? Yeah, unquenchable. -> LUKE 17:28-30 :-> 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day (IN THIS SEVENTH AND LAST DAY, OR SEVENTH AND LAST MILLENNIUM) when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day(IN THIS DAY), he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Be prepared or else get ready -> Matthew 25:6-10.

You are on the right track:

If those who claim to take Scripture seriously simply apply the fundamental rules of Biblical interpretation seriously on this topic it becomes crystal clear.

Scripture interprets Sctipture:

It just so happens that Scripture already tells us what the "Eternal" and "unquenchable" fire does:
It utterly destroys, and you have pointed that out.

Jude 7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Translation: I am God and I've already painted a perfectly vivid picture of what will happen to the wicked in my eternal fire, and it's what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha:

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrha?
They were utterly destroyed, every inhabitant perished, and the smoke of their destruction was visible for miles around:

Gen 19: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

We don't need to debate about or guess what happens when people are thrown into furnaces....they burn up like tares....or Sodomites.
Mat 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Isa 33:10
Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Isa 33:11
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. (so, fire devours? o.k. that actually tracks)
Isa 33:12
And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

("Everlasting burnings" are something that you cannot "dwell" in).....because of course you can't. Why in the world would God use such a counter-intuitive idea as a fire that people simply live forever in. The idea is stupid on its face.

The reason people ignore this is because they are essentially pre-committed to the concept of the eternality of the soul (a pagan concept) that humans simply cannot die:
God kicking Adam out of the garden of eden is proof that they absolutely MUST die because they are sinners:
Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Translation: Man is evil now and it will suck on an incomprehensible level if he lives forever....let's kick him out of the garden so he doesn't have access to the tree of Life

 

[Some Rando]

Paul repeatedly reinforces the rather obvious point that creatures made of dust don't naturally live forever:
Rom. 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(immortality and eternal life are something to be sought after)
I Cor. 15: 3
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(you are by nature corruptible and must upon resurrection "put on" immortality....you know...because you don't have that, because you aren't God)

I Tim 6:14,16
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
....Who ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(because only God is inherently immortal by nature...and you were made of dust, and go back to it).

2 Tim. 1: 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[Some Rando]

NEVERTHELESS, ladies and gentlemen, FEAR NOT! just in case we did not get the memo.....
Just in case we believe, as the pagans do, that we are immortal beings...
Jesus himself tells us that he's quite capable of killing you anyway!
Matt. 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This makes me think that Jesus wasn't trying to confuse anybody in
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The reason I believe in conditional immortality is because I soon came to realize that I had been subconsciously trained to automatically and thoughtlessly rewrite Scripture and redefine obvious and simple terms in my mind through decades of conditioning. Those terms which I had been conditioned to redefine are the complex terms:
"life" "death" "perish" "burn" "destroy" "eternal life" "devour" "wither" etc...
I didn't believe John 3:16
I mentally automatically rewrote John 3:16 in my head without thinking every time I quoted it.
I believed in Eternal Conscious Torment for 40 years and defended the doctrine.

If you simply believe the hundreds of times God uses such words to explain both the fate of the wicked and the reward of the righteous in the whole of Scripture it is clear as day.

 

[Some Rando]

The internet now exists.

Amongst a hundred horrible results of that, there is also at least one good one:

The internet is also where bad ideas go to die.

The mighty bastions of mental control like the seminaries no longer have the monopoly on Biblical teaching

Christians can study the Bible for themselves, discuss the ideas, and witness Bible Scholars (I don't confuse Theologians with Bible Scholars, they are two different things) and debate ideas freely.

My own personal degree is in Theology:
The very last person I would consult to discover what the Bible itself actually teaches about a particular doctrine is a Systematic Theologian.
Because what their training consists of is creating elaborate syllogisms to reinforce pre-assumed Philosophical and Theological ideas in order to generate complex webs of inter-connected Theological schema with which to instruct the masses.

This is not evil in its intent. But, it can be catastrophic in its results if even one assumed premise from which they work is false....

Within conservative Bible-believing circles, my prediction is that within the next 30 years the doctrine of the wicked living forever in Eternal Conscious Torment will be the minority view. Not because modern believers are just too "sissy" to accept the hard-core-truths of Scripture, but because what Seminaries teach is Systematic Theology and Systematic Theology (while it can serve a purpose if it stays in its lane) is not the appropriate method to study Scripture. Furthermore, more and more podcasts, Youtube debates, lectures etc.. become increasingly available, and the wealth of sound Biblical scholarship on this issue is made available to serious Bible believers at the push of a button.

If anyone is curious, Edward Fudge's lecture on the topic is without peer:

 

[Scarlett O.]

It's mind-boggling to me that people who claim Christianity REFUSE to believe the words of Jesus Christ, Himself. The multiple words from multiple books that claim that hell is eternal.

That doesn't make me jump up and down with glee. But it IS the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[Some Rando]

It's mind-boggling to me that people who claim Christianity REFUSE to believe the words of Jesus Christ, Himself. The multiple words from multiple books that claim that hell is eternal.

That doesn't make me jump up and down with glee. But it IS the words of Jesus Christ.

Hell is eternal.
The fire that consumes is eternal.
We are agreed.

I don't believe that the wicked are eternal.
The Scriptures say the opposite.

The words of Jesus Christ are that he can "destroy both body and soul in hell".. (which is "eternal")
Those are the words of Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

Anybody see any scriptural and/or early church support for it?

There is no biblical support for it

 

[Some Rando]

There is no biblical support for it

It's on practically every page of Scripture unless you are willfully blind.

 

[JesusFan]

It's on practically every page of Scripture unless you are willfully blind.

Jesus denied that, as he plainly warned us against eternal hell fire

 

[Scarlett O.]

Again, Jesus said in Matthew 25, for just one example, that the unrighteous will go into eternal punishment and the righteous into eternal life.

Why would hell be eternal if there is none to punish? Again, hell makes me sad.

I have tried my best to stay out of this forum as there is at least one sock puppet here and no one believes me and the amount of support for annihilation makes me very upset.

 

[Some Rando]

Again, Jesus said in Matthew 25, for just one example, that the unrighteous will go into eternal punishment and the righteous into eternal life.

Correct:
The unrighteous go into an eternal punishment from which there is no escape.
That punishment is described in the Bible as "death" the "second death" "perishing" "destruction".
The unrighteous do NOT inherit "eternal life".
They will never inherit eternal life.
That punishment will last forever.
They will forever suffer the fate of death, and there is no escape.
Only the righteous inherit eternal life.
Therefore, the unrighteous do not live forever. They are destroyed in the Eternal fire.

Why would hell be eternal if there is none to punish?

They were made for Satan and his demons, perhaps they are made naturally immortal (I suspect so, since they aren't made of dust). I don't know. They were not made for humans. The fires of hell are the fires of God's wrath, and they are "eternal". The fires which are "eternal" utterly destroy. That is the consistent image Scriptures use as Jude makes clear for us:
Jude 7:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The fire is eternal,
The wicked are not.
That is the verbiage the Bible uses.

Again, hell makes me sad.

Me too.

I have tried my best to stay out of this forum as there is at least one sock puppet here and no one believes me

I don't know what you mean by the "sock puppet", but, I like your posts and wish you spoke out more.
I think most of your posts have wisdom behind them.

and the amount of support for annihilation makes me very upset.

If that is in fact what the Bible teaches it shouldn't.
It's what the Bible teaches.
In very direct and non-uncertain terms.
Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Read that verse slowly, pretend that "death" means "death" and "eternal life" means "eternal life".
Don't redefine "death" and "life" in your mind.
Just accept the text for what it says.

 

[Some Rando]

Again, Jesus said in Matthew 25, for just one example, that the unrighteous will go into eternal punishment and the righteous into eternal life.

Let me suggest one more thing: (I myself believed in ECT for over 40 years)
You are confusing parts of speach; namely a noun vs. a verb.

Let me suggest that when you read "Eternal punishment" (noun) you "hear" Eternal punishing" (verb)

Think about it.

 

[Some Rando]

Jesus denied that, as he plainly warned us against eternal hell fire

The fires of hell are eternal.

What you believe is that the wicked are "eternal".

Please quote one verse.....
Just one single verse in Scripture...
which says that the wicked will live forever, or that they will inherit eternal life.

Either you can post it, or you are basically a troll.