Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Where do you get that silly idea that some were never lost BF? The bible tells all have sinned so if they have sinned they wold be under the wrath of God.
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Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13
- Thread starter Van
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Where do you get that silly idea that some were never lost BF? The bible tells all have sinned so if they have sinned they wold be under the wrath of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that Christ repents for them BF?
You really are not very clear in your posts.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its Christs responsibility to save them all, what u dont understand about that?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Christ is responsible to save that which was lost Lk 19:10
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It's Christ responsibility to give repentance as Savior, that is why God highly exalted Him Acts 5 31
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
2 Thess. 2:13
13 Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,
13. But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters {Gk [brothers]} beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (NRSV)
13. But we ought to give thanks to God for you always, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in truth. (NAB)
Just posting scripture without explaining how the post adds to the discussion is not useful.
Here we see the Greek word "adelphos" (G80) and in this usage refers to fellow believers as siblings of one family, as children of God. So where we see brothers, brothers and sisters, siblings, or brethren, the meaning is the same.
Next rather than "from the beginning" of the New Covenant, we see "chosen as first fruits" based on a variant text. Here is the NET Bible footnote:
Several mss (B F G P 0278 33 81 323 1739 1881 al bo) read ἀπαρχήν (aparchn, “as a first fruit”; i.e., as the first converts) instead of ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς (ap’ arch", “from the beginning,” found in א D Ψ Ď it sa), but this seems more likely to be a change by scribes who thought of the early churches in general in this way. But Paul would not be likely to call the Thessalonians “the first fruits” among his converts. Further, ἀπαρχή (aparch, “first fruit”) is a well-worn term in Paul’s letters (Rom 8:23; 11:16; 16:5; 1 Cor 15:20, 23; 16:15), while ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς occurs nowhere else in Paul. Scribes might be expected to change the text to the more familiar term. Nevertheless, a decision is difficult (see arguments for ἀπαρχήν in TCGNT 568), and ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς must be preferred only slightly.
Some people have made the simple truth of 2 Thess 2:13-14 much too hard.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
the beginning is a reference to the church beginning at the beginning of the age at the resurrection of Christ. That is all it means. The choosing took place in real time when he separated the believers from all others by giving the indwelling Spirit of Christ WHEN they believed.
Whereunto = all the above was possible because of the gospel that was preached to them at God's charge. The final result is future. Saved people will be glorified in a body like the glorified body of Jesus Christ. This is not hard to understand by Bible believers.
The beginning is defined in Col 1:18 if anyone will receive it.
Col 1:18 And he (Jesus Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
One may take this statement literal because God intends it to be literal. Jesus Christ was the first human to be raised again from the dead by the power of the Spirit of God never to die again
Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God, born again spiritually at his resurrection. He was not dead because he had sinned, but he died for us and he was dead nevertheless and the Spirit that had been in him was in heaven while he was dead, his soul was in paradise in the center of the earth, and his body was in the tomb. That is the definition of death, separation. At his resurrection he was glorified in his body that can occupy heaven and is described in various passages in the NT scriptures.
This passage in 2 Thess has nothing to do with being chosen before the foundation of the world.
I hope this helps.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
the beginning is a reference to the church beginning at the beginning of the age at the resurrection of Christ. That is all it means. The choosing took place in real time when he separated the believers from all others by giving the indwelling Spirit of Christ WHEN they believed.
Whereunto = all the above was possible because of the gospel that was preached to them at God's charge. The final result is future. Saved people will be glorified in a body like the glorified body of Jesus Christ. This is not hard to understand by Bible believers.
The beginning is defined in Col 1:18 if anyone will receive it.
Col 1:18 And he (Jesus Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
One may take this statement literal because God intends it to be literal. Jesus Christ was the first human to be raised again from the dead by the power of the Spirit of God never to die again
Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God, born again spiritually at his resurrection. He was not dead because he had sinned, but he died for us and he was dead nevertheless and the Spirit that had been in him was in heaven while he was dead, his soul was in paradise in the center of the earth, and his body was in the tomb. That is the definition of death, separation. At his resurrection he was glorified in his body that can occupy heaven and is described in various passages in the NT scriptures.
This passage in 2 Thess has nothing to do with being chosen before the foundation of the world.
I hope this helps.
Someone said belief of the truth is the result of sanctification by the spirit. I called that view "idiotic absurdity." 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation "through" or on the basis of faith in the truth. It does not say sanctification provides faith in the truth. That claim is idiotic absurdity.
Next a view is expressed that changes the Greek inspired noun, into a verb to alter what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say, which is we were chosen rather than saved through faith in the truth.
Calvinism is obviously false, that is why poster after poster misrepresents what I say and what scripture says.
Next a view is expressed that changes the Greek inspired noun, into a verb to alter what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say, which is we were chosen rather than saved through faith in the truth.
Calvinism is obviously false, that is why poster after poster misrepresents what I say and what scripture says.
To paraphrase part of a recent post:
The first person taken to heaven was the thief on the cross which occurred after Christ physically died, and before the following Sunday when Christ was bodily resurrected as the "first born" from the dead. Jesus said "today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) I believe that day was Friday, but was certainly the day of Christ's death.
The 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 passage has nothing to do with being chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world, and everything to do with being chosen individually for salvation since the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood, when He died.
The first person taken to heaven was the thief on the cross which occurred after Christ physically died, and before the following Sunday when Christ was bodily resurrected as the "first born" from the dead. Jesus said "today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) I believe that day was Friday, but was certainly the day of Christ's death.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a compound sentence, with subjects, verbs, direct and indirect objects. Here is how I understand it based on grammar and context.
We should always give thanks to God for you as beloved by the Lord.
Subject, =We; Verb = should give thanks, direct object = God; indirect object for you the beloved.
We should give thanks to God for you as our siblings in Christ!
Why?
Because God has chosen you.
Subject = God; Verb = has chosen; direct object = you.
The remaining phrases are indirect objects describing aspects of the verbs action upon the recipient.
When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant
What was the purpose of the action? For salvation
Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth. Thus the New Covenant means and basis of election for salvation began after Christ died, because only then could we be figuratively washed in His sacrificial blood. So "from the beginning" refers to from the day Christ died, providing the blood of the New Covenant, until the end of the age of grace.
What were the instrumental factors? Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Election was accomplished by transferring the person from the realm of darkness into Christ.
The basis of the choice was God crediting the faith of the individual as righteousness.
Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches certain beliefs from the dark ages are false.
First, rather than Unconditional Election, scripture teaches we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.
Next, to be individually chosen through faith in the truth means we had come to faith BEFORE we were chosen, therefore during our physical lifetime after we had heard and learned from the Father, and NOT before we were created.
But what about Ephesians 1:4 which says we were chosen before the foundation of the world? Since as individuals we were "drawn" by the Father before we came to Christ, we were not chosen before we were drawn. Because we once were "not a people" we were not chosen to be a people before we lived as not a people. Because once we had not "received mercy" we were not individually chosen before we lived having not received mercy. Because once we were children of wrath, we were not yet the chosen children of God, precluding being individually chosen before creation.
So just how were we chosen before the foundation of the world? Corporately! When God chose individually "Logos" to be His "Lamb of God," His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. His gracious choice of our Redeemer before creation therefore granted us who are now in Christ grace from all eternity. Those who would be redeemed were to have a common trait, believers whose faith God would credit as righteousness.
We should always give thanks to God for you as beloved by the Lord.
Subject, =We; Verb = should give thanks, direct object = God; indirect object for you the beloved.
We should give thanks to God for you as our siblings in Christ!
Why?
Because God has chosen you.
Subject = God; Verb = has chosen; direct object = you.
The remaining phrases are indirect objects describing aspects of the verbs action upon the recipient.
When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant
What was the purpose of the action? For salvation
Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth. Thus the New Covenant means and basis of election for salvation began after Christ died, because only then could we be figuratively washed in His sacrificial blood. So "from the beginning" refers to from the day Christ died, providing the blood of the New Covenant, until the end of the age of grace.
What were the instrumental factors? Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Election was accomplished by transferring the person from the realm of darkness into Christ.
The basis of the choice was God crediting the faith of the individual as righteousness.
Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches certain beliefs from the dark ages are false.
First, rather than Unconditional Election, scripture teaches we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.
Next, to be individually chosen through faith in the truth means we had come to faith BEFORE we were chosen, therefore during our physical lifetime after we had heard and learned from the Father, and NOT before we were created.
But what about Ephesians 1:4 which says we were chosen before the foundation of the world? Since as individuals we were "drawn" by the Father before we came to Christ, we were not chosen before we were drawn. Because we once were "not a people" we were not chosen to be a people before we lived as not a people. Because once we had not "received mercy" we were not individually chosen before we lived having not received mercy. Because once we were children of wrath, we were not yet the chosen children of God, precluding being individually chosen before creation.
So just how were we chosen before the foundation of the world? Corporately! When God chose individually "Logos" to be His "Lamb of God," His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. His gracious choice of our Redeemer before creation therefore granted us who are now in Christ grace from all eternity. Those who would be redeemed were to have a common trait, believers whose faith God would credit as righteousness.
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Perhaps I may put a different point of view here? ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς is found in several hundred ancient Greek MSS, while ἀπαρχήν is found, I believe, in 16. Interestingly, Codex Sinaiticus has the former, while Codex Vaticanus gives the latter. Usually they are united.
While the NET is right in saying that ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς is not found elsewhere in Paul, the concept is by no means unique. The idea that God chose His own people, or decreed or promised something 'before the ages' (1 Cor. 2:7), 'from the ages' (Col.1:26), 'before the foundation of the world' (Eph. 1:4) 'before time began' (Titus 1:2) is certainly Pauline. Also, the idea tht God calls men to a salvation which He has already chosen appears in Rom. 8:30.
I don't think this is so. 'In the beginning was the Word' (John 1:1); 'I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last' (Rev. 22:13). Col.1:18 is making the point that our Lord is not only the beginning, but also the firstborn from the dead, '...that in all things [not just one] He might have the preeminence.' V.17 makes the same point, '... And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.'JD731 said:
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I understand why Christ came BF. I am asking you if you mean universal salvation as that is what your post indicates.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You are not answering the question BF.
Are you saying that Christ repents for them?
Why don't you just read Acts 5:31?
Let us take a closer look at these claims.
1) What was the mystery that God predestined before the "ages,"in 1 Corinthians 2:7? First "before the ages" refers to before time began, before creation. Next the context reveals the "mystery" in view in our verse. Mystery refers to the things God has prepared for those who love Him, those to be individually chosen as heirs of the kingdom promised to those who love Him. That "mystery" has nothing to do with predesignating some individuals for salvation before time began. That claim is a non-supported fiction.
2) The mystery in view in Colossians 1:26 is that the Good News is available both to Jews and Gentiles, and we have assurance of that because Christ lives (His indwelt Spirit) in us. That mystery had been hidden in the past time period, from the first generation of humanity to the present, when Christ revealed the mystery.
3) The corporate election for salvation of Ephesians 1:4 did indeed occur before humanity was created, but that did not "predestine" any individual for salvation. That is the Calvinist fiction. No individual was chosen before the creation of humanity because everyone chosen was once "not a people" chosen to be God's own possession.
4) Titus 1:2 says God forever promised before time that those chosen by Him will have eternal life. It does NOT say God had chosen individuals before creation, that is just another Calvinist fiction.
5) Left out of this list is 2 Timothy 1:9. However, for completeness: The purpose and grace given to those now in Christ, before time began, was God choosing His Redeemer which included the corporate choice of His target group to redeem, those whose faith God might credit as righteousness.
6) Lastly Romans 8:30 was once again mentioned, claiming it supported the idea individuals were chosen before creation, but then called into the kingdom of His Son during their physical lives. What the verse actually says is those of His target group were also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Note they were NOT predestined to be chosen, but only those chosen were then predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, also in other verses, to be bodily redeemed and to receive eternal life.
All of these false claims must be discarded in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
These Calvinists like to change the subject from 2 Thessalonians 2:13 to their manufactured disparagement of those that love them enough to be messengers of truth. So sad...
Yet another idiotic absurdity, here positional sanctification, being spiritually set apart in Christ as the means of our election for salvation, is substituted for progressive sanctification where we progressively become more Christ-like as Ambassadors of Christ AFTER we are born anew.
Just another apples claimed to be oranges absurdity from Calvinism.