Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[Silverhair]

Why was Christ exalted by God here Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Since you refuse to answer a basis question or perhaps you just do not know the answer I will give you a few hints.

Who repents, Christ or the person?

Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you

Act 3:19 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord.

Act 17:30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

Act 26:20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God,

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree, everyone whose name has been written in the book of life will always have their name in that Book, once saved, always saved. However your unstated claim, implied, "ever since" pinning the supposed writing at the foundation, rather than the interval after. This too is false doctrine, as "from the beginning, or from the foundation of the world (fallen humanity) refers to the whole time frame rather than than just at the beginning.

I took time to explain to you that because 'have been written' is in the Perfect Tense, it means that the names were written, once and for all in the Lamb's Book of Life and they have been written there since the foundation of the world. I understand that you may not like that, but I'm afraid you will have to accept it.

The false claim made by Brightflame52 was that Genesis 1:1 referred to something happening "from the beginning." It says "in the beginning" in the NKJV so your claim is also false.

My suggestion that you should not accuse other people of making false claims is regardless of whether what @Brightfame52 wrote is correct or not. It is on the basis that the pot should not call the kettle black. I made no claim about Gen. 1:1, but you are so used to accusing people that you can't help repeating yourself. It is no wonder that so many people have put you on 'ignore.'
Gen. 1:1 was written in Hebrew. I am not qualified to comment on that language, but it is the case that God made the world and it has remained since the beginning of the world.

 

[Van]

I took time to explain to you that because 'have been written' is in the Perfect Tense, it means that the names were written, once and for all in the Lamb's Book of Life and they have been written there since the foundation of the world. I understand that you may not like that, but I'm afraid you will have to accept it.

My suggestion that you should not accuse other people of making false claims is regardless of whether what @Brightfame52 wrote is correct or not. It is on the basis that the pot should not call the kettle black. I made no claim about Gen. 1:1, but you are so used to accusing people that you can't help repeating yourself. It is no wonder that so many people have put you on 'ignore.'
Gen. 1:1 was written in Hebrew. I am not qualified to comment on that language, but it is the case that God made the world and it has remained since the beginning of the world.

1) For you to imply I did not agree with the duration of the "Perfect" is yet another false claim by you. And I note you did not repeat the "ever since" implication, but did not admit to that false claim either.

2) I did not accuse, I illustrated his false statement, which you conveniently ignored! So a third false claim by you. The false claim is to claim individuals were chosen "in the beginning" Genesis 1:1. See post #204. All these Calvinists do is post non-stop falsehoods to hide the fact 2 Thessalonians 2:13 proves their false doctrine of unconditional individual election for salvation is false.

3) Your claim I make false claims is yet another false claim. I sometimes make errors, but I admit to them. I acknowledge my error, whereas not one Calvinist can admit to any error in Calvinist doctrine, because they did not originate it.

4) Lastly you use the phrase "from the beginning" properly, referring to the entire time period.

 

[Van]

Martin Marprelate said:
I made no claim about Gen. 1:1, but you are so used to accusing people that you can't help repeating yourself. It is no wonder that so many people have put you on 'ignore.'

Van said:
The false claim made by Brightflame52 was that Genesis 1:1 referred to something happening "from the beginning." It says "in the beginning" in the NKJV so your claim is also false.

So the false claim was to imply I had said you made the claim Genesis 1:1 said "from the beginning. I made no such charge. The idea was you knew, based on the NKJV, Genesis 1:1 said "in the beginning" and did not claim otherwise!

In the beginning refers to the initial or first part of a sequence of events, where since the beginning refers to the whole sequence from the start to the end. Calvinism must conflate before, in and since to misrepresent when God chooses individuals for salvation and writes their names in the Lambs book of life. Individuals are chosen since the beginning, not in the beginning or before the beginning. No Calvinist will admit to their misrepresentation, their false claim. Not one. Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 folks!

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a compound sentence, with subjects, verbs, direct and indirect objects.

We should always give thanks to God for you as beloved by the Lord.
Subject, =We; Verb = should give thanks, direct object = God; indirect object for you the beloved.
We should give thanks to God for you as our siblings in Christ!
Why?
Because God has chosen you.
Subject = God; Verb = has chosen; direct object = you.

The remaining phrases are indirect objects describing aspects of the action upon the recipient.

When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant
What was the purpose of the action? For salvation

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth.

What were the instrumental factors? Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Election was accomplished by transferring the person from the realm of darkness into Christ.
The basis of the choice was God crediting the faith of the individual as righteousness.

Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches certain beliefs from the dark ages are false.

First, rather than Unconditional Election, scripture teaches we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.

Next, to be individually chosen through faith in the truth means we had come to faith BEFORE we were chosen, therefore during our physical lifetime after we had heard and learned from the Father, and NOT before we were created.

But what about Ephesians 1:4 which says we were chosen before the foundation of the world? Since as individuals we were "drawn" by the Father before we came to Christ, we were not chosen before we were drawn. Because we once were "not a people" we were not chosen to be a people before we lived as not a people. Because once we had not "received mercy" we were not individually chosen before we lived having not received mercy. Because once we were children of wrath, we were not yet the chosen children of God, precluding being individually chosen before creation.

So just how were we chosen before the foundation of the world? Corporately! When God chose individually "Logos" to be His "Lamb of God," His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. His gracious choice of our Redeemer before creation therefore granted us who are now in Christ grace from all eternity. Those who would be redeemed were to have a common trait, believers whose faith God would credit as righteousness.

 

[Brightfame52]

Unbiblical nonsense. To claim from the beginning does not refer to since the beginning is idiotic nonsense.

No its not its the truth, its right here b4 your eyes 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Brightfame52]

Since you refuse to answer a basis question or perhaps you just do not know the answer I will give you a few hints.

Who repents, Christ or the person?

Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you

Act 3:19 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away,

Act 8:22 Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord.

Act 17:30 Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

Act 26:20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God,

Why was Christ exalted by God here Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Brightfame52]

I took time to explain to you that because 'have been written' is in the Perfect Tense, it means that the names were written, once and for all in the Lamb's Book of Life and they have been written there since the foundation of the world. I understand that you may not like that, but I'm afraid you will have to accept it.

Thats correct

 

[Brightfame52]

an said:
The false claim made by Brightflame52 was that Genesis 1:1 referred to something happening "from the beginning." It says "in the beginning" in the NKJV so your claim is also false.

That's an orthodox understanding

Elliot writes:

Beloved of the Lord.—Precisely the same phrase as in 1Thessalonians 1:4, except for the substitution of “the Lord” for “God,” which shows the concurrence of the Eternal Son in His Father’s predestinations. As in the former passage, the tense (“who have been loved”) makes the reader think of the everlasting duration of that love (Jeremiah 31:3), and is again connected with the mystery of election.

“O love, who ere life’s earliest dawn

On me thy choice hast gently laid.”

Hath . . . chosen.—The Greek tense should be rendered by chose, referring to the definite moment (so to speak) in the divine counsels when the choice was fixed. This moment is defined as “from the beginning,” i.e., from the eternity preceding the origin of time, called by the same name in Genesis 1:1, John 1:1, and 1John 1:1. It does not simply mean “from the outset,” i.e., from the moment of first thinking at all about you. The identical phrase is said not to occur again in St. Paul. It may be noticed that there is a striking various-reading in some of the MSS., involving the change of only one letter, which would give us (instead of “chose you from the beginning”) “chose you as firstfruits.” Comp. James 1:18; but the reading in the text is better supported.

To salvation.—This “salvation” is in contrast with the “destruction” (2Thessalonians 1:9), “perdition” (2Thessalonians 2:3), or “perishing” (2Thessalonians 2:10), all of which represent the same word in the Greek. Out of the wreck of a world, God had from eternity chosen these Thessalonians to come off safely.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - see the notes on 2 Thessalonians 1:3. "Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." The following important things are affirmed or implied here:
(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.

(2) that this was from "the beginning" ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see the John 1:1 note; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 3:9-11 notes. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.

(3) that this was the choice of the persons to whom Paul referred. The doctrine of personal election is, therefore, true.

JFB

from the beginning—"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8). Some of the oldest manuscripts read as English Version, but other oldest manuscripts and Vulgate read, "as first-fruits." The Thessalonians were among the first converts in Europe (compare Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:15). In a more general sense, it occurs in Jas 1:18; Re 14:4; so I understand it here including the more restricted sense.

Matt Poole

Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation: which words are either to give the reason of the apostle’s thanksgivings, or rather all arguments to evidence they were beloved of the Lord. And he instanceth in their election as a proof of it. There is an election to office, as David to be king, 2 Samuel 6:21, and Judas to be an apostle, John 6:70; and election to a visible church, and means of salvation, and thus the seed of Abraham were chosen, Deu 26:18 Psalm 135:4 Psalm 147:19; and election to salvation, as in the text; which is either that which follows faith, as some understand that place, Matthew 22:14, or rather that which goes before it, said here to be from the beginnning: not from the beginning of the gospel, as some say; nor from the beginning of our preaching to you, or of your effectual calling, as others say; no, nor yet is it meant from the beginning of the world, which was the beginning of time; or immediately upon Adam’s fall: but by beginning is here meant eternity itself, as election is said to be from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, which is from eternity. Though beginning seems to relate to time, yet the Scriptures often express eternity by such words as relate to time: as when God is called the Ancient of days, Daniel 7:9, it signifies his eternity; and Jude speaks of some that were of old ordained to condemnation, Judges 1:4, palai progegrammenoi, God’s eternal decrees being compared to a book wherein names are written. When was their ordaining but from eternity? And it is election to salvation, complete salvation, which is here meant, in the full fruition of it; not in the title to it by faith, or the first-fruits of it in sanctification, because they are here mentioned as the means that tend to it.

Gill

because God hath from, the beginning chosen you to salvation; which is to be understood, not of an election of them, as a nation, for they were not a nation, only a part of one; nor of them as a church, for they were not so from the beginning; nor to the outward means of grace, the ministry of the word and ordinances, for the choice is unto salvation; nor to any office, for they were not all officers in the church, only some; nor does it intend the effectual calling, for that is distinguished from it in the following verse; but an eternal appointment of persons to grace and glory: and this is an act of God the Father, in Christ, from eternity; and which arises from his sovereign good will and pleasure, and is an instance of his free grace and favour, for the glorifying of himself; and is irrespective of the faith, holiness, and good works of men; all which are the fruits and effects, and not the motives, conditions, or causes of electing grace. This act is the leading one to all other blessings of grace, as justification, adoption, calling, and glorification, and is certain and immutable in itself, and in its effects. The date of it is "from the beginning": not from the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel to them, and the sense be, that, as soon as the Gospel was preached, they believed, and God chose them; for what was there remarkable in them, that this should be peculiarly observed of them? The Bereans are said to be more noble than they were: nor from the beginning of their calling, for predestination or election precedes calling; see Romans 8:30 nor from the beginning of time, or of the creation of the world, but before the world began, even from eternity; and in such sense the phrase is used in Proverbs 8:23 and that it is the sense of it here, is manifest from Ephesians 1:4 where this choice is said to be before the foundation of the world. The end to which men, by this act, are chosen, is "salvation": not temporal, though the elect of God are appointed to many temporal salvations and deliverances, and which they enjoy both before and after conversion; yet salvation here designs the salvation of the soul, though not exclusive of the body, a spiritual and an eternal salvation, salvation by Jesus Christ, as is expressed in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and the same decree that appoints men to salvation, appoints Christ to be the Saviour of them; and there is salvation in and by no other. The means through which this choice is made, are

 

[Silverhair]

Why was Christ exalted by God here Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

BF if you could think logically then you would know that the view you are holding is wrong.

Has all of Israel repented ?
Has all of Israel had their sins forgiven?

So again I ask, who repents Christ or the person?

 

[Brightfame52]

BF if you could think logically then you would know that the view you are holding is wrong.

What is Christ exalted for according to Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant

@Van constantly repeating this does not make it true. The words 'the new covenant' appears nowhere in the context of 2 Thes. 2:13. In fact, the word 'covenant' appears nowhere in the whole of 2 Thessalonians! Well maybe it pops up in 1 Thessalonians, so that the recipients would expect to find it in 2 Thes? Nope! You can search the whole of the two letters to the Thessalonians, and you will not find the Greek word diatheke anywhere at all. But that doesn't matter! Van will write it in so that it fits his argument.

Never mind the facts; just listen to Van!

 

[Silverhair]

What is Christ exalted for according to Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

When you continue to ignore biblical texts that show your view is wrong just proves you do not want to trust the word of God but will just keep posting that same verse over and over as if that will make your view correct.

 

[Brightfame52]

When you continue to ignore biblical texts that show your view is wrong just proves you do not want to trust the word of God but will just keep posting that same verse over and over as if that will make your view correct.

What is Christ exalted for according to Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Silverhair]

What is Christ exalted for according to Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Bf I am just going to ignore you as it is obvious you are not capable of answering even a basic question.

I really do not enjoy dealing with a childish person like you.

Have a god day.

 

[Van]

@Van constantly repeating this does not make it true. The words 'the new covenant' appears nowhere in the context of 2 Thes. 2:13. In fact, the word 'covenant' appears nowhere in the whole of 2 Thessalonians! Well maybe it pops up in 1 Thessalonians, so that the recipients would expect to find it in 2 Thes? Nope! You can search the whole of the two letters to the Thessalonians, and you will not find the Greek word diatheke anywhere at all. But that doesn't matter! Van will write it in so that it fits his argument.

Never mind the facts; just listen to Van!

Yet another against the person post, which is a fallacious argument.

Did I say the words "the New Covenant" appear in the context? Nope so the implication that I did is yet another false claim by the Calvinists.

What did I say?

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth.​

Did any Calvinist acknowledge the reasoning for the meaning of "from the beginning?" Nope. This is how they defend their false doctrines, with smokescreed and diversion via false claims and false charges.

 

[Van]

That's an orthodox understanding

Elliot writes:

JFB

Matt Poole

Gill

What a waste, I cite God's word and Calvinist post taint so and cite Calvinist smokescreed. Everyone knows there are tons of Calvinist falsehoods, but they do not stand up to study. Before the beginning does not mean In the beginning, and in the beginning does not mean since the beginning. Did any of these "orthodox" commentary writers address that no one was individually transferred into Christ's spiritual body to be washed with His blood BEFORE He died? Nope.

Did any of these say why the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died? Nope

 

[Van]

Has anyone even looked at how the phrase "from the beginning" is used in scripture.

Look at these examples where the phrase refers to a whole time period subsequent to an event.

2 Samuel 21:10, Ecc. 3:11, Isa. 46:10, Mat. 19:8, Luke 1:2, John 6:64, John 8:25, Acts 26:4, 2 Thess 2:13, 1 John 1:1, 1 John 2:24,

Many of these NT citations refer to the beginning of Christ's ministry and everything He taught subsequently!! And note how many say from the beginning you heard or learned, or acts in some way, those during the lifetime of those in the audience!!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yet another against the person post, which is a fallacious argument.

Did I say the words "the New Covenant" appear in the context? Nope so the implication that I did is yet another false claim by the Calvinists.

What did I say?

​

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth. ​

Did any Calvinist acknowledge the reasoning for the meaning of "from the beginning?" Nope. This is how they defend their false doctrines, with smokescreed and diversion via false claims and false charges.

Yet another 'against the person' post which is a fallacious argument.

Did I say that @Van said the words "the New Covenant" appear in the context? Nope, so the implication that I did is another false clain by Van. What I said was that the words 'New Covenant' appear nowhere in 1 or 2 Thessalonians and so for Van to write them in is fallacious and misleading.

Why does "from the beginning" not refer to 'from the beginning of the New Covenant'? Because there is not the remotest suggestion in the text that Paul meant that meaning. Van has made it up entirely out of his own imagination. Abraham's bosom has nothing to do with anything in 2 Thessalonians, and I explained the meaning of John 3:13 in post #149.

Did Van acknowledge the reasoning for the meaning of "from the beginning" -- Namely that it actually means "from the beginning" and Van has no business adding to the word of God in a vain attempt to bolster his faulty theology? Nope. This is how he defends his false doctrines, with added words, smokescreen and diversion via false claims and false charges.

 

[Brightfame52]

Bf I am just going to ignore you as it is obvious you are not capable of answering even a basic question.

I really do not enjoy dealing with a childish person like you.

Have a god day.

What is Christ exalted for according to Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.