God Wants to Deliver Us from the Evil Instrumental Music of This Present Evil World

[JonC]

Oh, so now I'm condemning Christ.

It's possible for some to travel to far out into the world to see what separation really means.

But I trust that's not you, Jon.

What I mean is when one condemns Christians they are condemning Christ. That is why I urge caution when "playing God" by declaring He rejects the praise of Christians when they use a style you dislike. It is condemning Christ.

But we were not called to separate from the world superficially. We were called to be in but not of the world, a people called out to God.

What is the worldly dress that states worldly success? A suit and a tie. Does God reject the worship of a Christian because they wear a suit and tie? No.

Is Contemporary Worship Music distinct from worldly music? Yes - both in lyrics and style. But they use the same instruments.

But so do you. The paino ans organ are worldly instruments used in rock music. They are also used in false religions.

What you are using to condemn the worship of other Christians is your own preferences.

I am not saying you should change your worship music. God, I am sure, accepts the worship of Christians using hymns just as much as He accepts the praise of the saints who sing contemporary worship music.

I am saying you need to be careful condemning the worship of saints who have different preferences.

 

[Charlie24]

What I mean is when one condemns Christians they are condemning Christ. That is why I urge caution when "playing God" by declaring He rejects the praise of Christians when they use a style you dislike. It is condemning Christ.

But we were not called to separate from the world superficially. We were called to be in but not of the world, a people called out to God.

What is the worldly dress that states worldly success? A suit and a tie. Does God reject the worship of a Christian because they wear a suit and tie? No.

Is Contemporary Worship Music distinct from worldly music? Yes - both in lyrics and style. But they use the same instruments.

But so do you. The paino ans organ are worldly instruments used in rock music. They are also used in false religions.

What you are using to condemn the worship of other Christians is your own preferences.

I am not saying you should change your worship music. God, I am sure, accepts the worship of Christians using hymns just as much as He accepts the praise of the saints who sing contemporary worship music.

I am saying you need to be careful condemning the worship of saints who have different preferences.

Let's understand that I'm not condemning Christians, I'm condemning the rock beat worship.

Now if any Christians here approves of this type worship let it be known I disagree.

If someone wants to point out that I'm condemning Christians in the process of condemning the rock beat worship, then I say you can believe whatever you like. It doesn't matter to me, I stand firm against it.

 

[JonC]

Let's understand that I'm not condemning Christians, I'm condemning the rock beat worship.

Now if any Christians here approves of this type worship let it be known I disagree.

If someone wants to point out that I'm condemning Christians in the process of condemning the rock beat worship, then I say you can believe whatever you like. It doesn't matter to me, I stand firm against it.

Kinda. You are saying God rejects the worship of the saints who sing contemporary praise music because you do not like thar type of music and it is common to secular music.

The same was said of traditional hymns in the past.


Wearing a suit and tie has historically been a worldly symbol of worldly success. When rock music started they all wore suits and ties

Do you believe that God accepts the worship of Christians if they are wearing a suit and tie?

 

[DaveXR650]

It's possible for some to travel to far out into the world to see what separation really means.

A church has a right and a responsibility in the leadership to actually decide what will and will not be used as worship music in the church. And if you decide to sing hymns you are also logically deciding against using contemporary music. But don't kid yourself, those who are really into contemporary music tend to actively dislike hymns and would not attend a church that focused on them in worship. They are not any more open minded or spiritual. Humans have a limited capability to be open minded in real life. Choose your music as you believe is best for the worship and edification of the saints. You can make a good biblical case for looking out for the congregants spiritual welfare. It probably is harder to make a case that certain instruments are wrong in themselves. To make a case against what we call "rock and roll" is easier but not a slam dunk either. But you have secular guys like Alan Bloom (definitely not a Christian) who are on your side in this and warned of the damage such music does to culture and how it infiltrates into all aspects of culture.

 

[JonC]

@Charlie24

Another fairly interesting truth -

Biblical music (the music used in the bible for worship) waa comprised of complex rhythmic cycles, modal melodies, microtonal intervals with monophonic or heterophonic lines The singing was in chant style.

Traditional hymns adopted a secular type of music - Western music. It focuses on focusing on symmetrical, metered structures and harmony.

As you probably recognize, harmony (while absent from the music of the Bible) is present in rock music (and pop, country...you know...the worldly music).

What I mean is you are being a hypocrite on this issue.

You use worldly instruments (piano, organ) and a worldly music styles used in rock music (harmony, metered structure). You approve of wearing worldly clothes associated with material success.

 

[JonC]

A church has a right and a responsibility in the leadership to actually decide what will and will not be used as worship music in the church. And if you decide to sing hymns you are also logically deciding against using contemporary music. But don't kid yourself, those who are really into contemporary music tend to actively dislike hymns and would not attend a church that focused on them in worship. They are not any more open minded or spiritual. Humans have a limited capability to be open minded in real life. Choose your music as you believe is best for the worship and edification of the saints. You can make a good biblical case for looking out for the congregants spiritual welfare. It probably is harder to make a case that certain instruments are wrong in themselves. To make a case against what we call "rock and roll" is easier but not a slam dunk either. But you have secular guys like Alan Bloom (definitely not a Christian) who are on your side in this and warned of the damage such music does to culture and how it infiltrates into all aspects of culture.

I agree with the first sentence. You are absolutely correct.

I disagree with the "either or" part. Of all the churches I have attended we have sang contemporary worship music and traditiinal hymns. When I was a teen these would typically be traditional hymns and contemporary music by writers like the Gaithers. I'd say it was mostly hymns. But over the past several decades every church I have been a part of sung both hymns and contemporary worship music with it being mostly contemporary (or older contemporary like we sang in the late 1970's).

I told you thst there was a revival among our youth that many churches cannot see (it is outside of their tradition insofar as how they dress, some of their music, and maintaining a close community outside of church services).

I have discussed the topic of music with many. They all seem to love both old hymns and contemporary worship songs. They see the older hymns as a tie to saints who have gone before, while the contemporary dongs are perhaps more authentic to their worship.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

Another fairly interesting truth -

Biblical music (the music used in the bible for worship) waa comprised of complex rhythmic cycles, modal melodies, microtonal intervals with monophonic or heterophonic lines The singing was in chant style.

Traditional hymns adopted a secular type of music - Western music. It focuses on focusing on symmetrical, metered structures and harmony.

As you probably recognize, harmony (while absent from the music of the Bible) is present in rock music (and pop, country...you know...the worldly music).

What I mean is you are being a hypocrite on this issue.

You use worldly instruments (piano, organ) and a worldly music styles used in rock music (harmony, metered structure). You approve of wearing worldly clothes associated with material success.

Seems for almost 6000 years there was no rock beat to the music that represents the world.

I've been called worse than a hypocrite Jon, but I know that's just in passing.

I've never learned how to be fragile when stepping on toes, I guess that's the fundamentalist in me.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I’m still waiting for an answer to post 2.
When you tell me what we are talking about, it will be easier to discuss.

I already have. There is no biblical basis to claim that the divine revelation in Galatians 1:3-5 about God's wanting to deliver us from this present evil world has no relevance concerning instrumental music. I am not interested in discussing any specific instruments, music, etc. It is regrettable that every thread about music is very quickly turned away from actual discussion of the Bible itself to discussions about nearly everything but the Bible. It is no wonder that the controversies are never resolved.

 

[DaveXR650]

I find it difficult to stay through a service of traditional hymns.

What I was saying above is illustrated by what you said earlier regarding hymns.

They all seem to love both old hymns and contemporary worship songs. They see the older hymns as a tie to saints who have gone before, while the contemporary dongs are perhaps more authentic to their worship.

Still. I really hope you are right in this. I like hymns and I have found some really fine contemporary songs too. And I did see the worship leader at our old church, who knew nothing of hymns because of his age and background, after showing him a few - get really interested and has since become somewhat of a student of the old hymns (as an addition to his knowledge of contemporary music), not as an either or.

Maybe it would help if we had more actual examples. One of my favorite newer songs is this one:

Does that have a sound that is objectionable? There is some drum and I think some electrics but anyway, I really like it.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Seems for almost 6000 years there was no rock beat to the music that represents the world.

I've been called worse than a hypocrite Jon, but I know that's just in passing.

I've never learned how to be fragile when stepping on toes, I guess that's the fundamentalist in me.

There is no biblical reason that any of us who are strongly musically conservative have to believe that rock music is acceptable to God. Keep standing against it!

 

[Charlie24]

Seems for almost 6000 years there was no rock beat to the music that represents the world.

I've been called worse than a hypocrite Jon, but I know that's just in passing.

I've never learned how to be fragile when stepping on toes, I guess that's the fundamentalist in me.

@JonC

I'm a Dispensationalist and if you have any idea of what that means you will understand why I believe we are living in the last Church Age in Revelation, the Laocidean Church. The one that Christ spues out of His mouth.

We are losing our way, Jon, we are becoming to intertwined with the ways of world. We are being led away from our first love.

 

[JonC]

@JonC

I'm a Dispensationalist and if you have any idea of what that means you will understand why I believe we are living in the last Church Age in Revelation, the Laocidean Church. The one that Christ spues out of His mouth.

We are losing our way, Jon, we are becoming to intertwined with the ways of world. We are being led away from our first love.

I understand that. But I believe you have set your sights too low. Paul did not abandon his culture to reach people. He used not only his culture but the cultures of others.

How are IFB Christians being separate from the world when they adopt worldly clothes symbolic of worldly power and status as proper for worship?

How are you being seperate from the world by using Western worldly music (harmony and symmetrical metered structures)?

How are you being seperate if you use worldly instruments used in secular music (to include rock music) like pianos and organs?

You are not. In fact, were you not a part of the IFB group you would probably view the IFB churches as overly worldly compared to contemporary Baptist churches.


What you fear is not separation but looking too different. Contemporary Worship Music sounds nothing like secular music. The two cannot be mistaken. But I know several secular songs that sound like hymns (Atyics of my Life, Brokedown Palace, several indie songs).


I realized this with the clip you posted. Those Christians, worshipping and dancing to gospel music would NEVER be mistaken for being worldly. Yet those who criticize their type of praise typically worship wearing suits and nice dresses (worldly status symbols) in a somber academic type service akin to an intellectual worldly gathering.


Christianity is not loosing its way. But many churches have (whether by clinging to traditional and preferences or abandoning doctrine and discipline).

You really cannot see the movement of God in the younger generations over the past decade??

 

[Charlie24]

I understand that. But I believe you have set your sights too low. Paul did not abandon his culture to reach people. He used not only his culture but the cultures of others.

How are IFB Christians being separate from the world when they adopt worldly clothes symbolic of worldly power and status as proper for worship?

How are you being seperate from the world by using Western worldly music (harmony and symmetrical metered structures)?

How are you being seperate if you use worldly instruments used in secular music (to include rock music) like pianos and organs?

You are not. In fact, were you not a part of the IFB group you would probably view the IFB churches as overly worldly compared to contemporary Baptist churches.


What you fear is not separation but looking too different. Contemporary Worship Music sounds nothing like secular music. The two cannot be mistaken. But I know several secular songs that sound like hymns (Atyics of my Life, Brokedown Palace, several indie songs).


I realized this with the clip you posted. Those Christians, worshipping and dancing to gospel music would NEVER be mistaken for being worldly. Yet those who criticize their type of praise typically worship wearing suits and nice dresses (worldly status symbols) in a somber academic type service akin to an intellectual worldly gathering.


Christianity is not loosing its way. But many churches have (whether by clinging to traditional and preferences or abandoning doctrine and discipline).

You really cannot see the movement of God in the younger generations over the past decade??

I see Church after Church "touching the unclean thing" in bringing the young folks in. What do I mean by that?

Using the ways of the world to reach them, and not the ways of the Lord.

2 Cor. 6:17

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

 

[JonC]

I see Church after Church "touching the unclean thing" in bringing the young folks in. What do I mean by that?

Using the ways of the world to reach them, and not the ways of the Lord.

2 Cor. 6:17

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

This is the conclusion to that verse (how we follow it...the "therefore")

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Ask:
1. Does wearing worldly clothes that the world views as a status of secular power and material wealth defile you?

2. Does using components of worldly Western music (harmony, symmetrical metered structures) defile you?

3. Does using worldly instruments (piano, organ, guitar, drums, cymbals) defile you?


For me, wearing a suit (worldly clothes symbolic of secular power and material wealth) is far too worldly. It could defile me - not for the suit but as an expression of pride. For you it may not be.

We both use worldly musical instruments. You use a worldly style of music (worldly for the past few decades).



That which comes out of the person, that is what defiles the person. For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile the person. (Mk 7)


Condemning the praise of Believers defiles a person. It is pride, foolishness, wickedness, disobedience rising to the surface.


We cannot judge the worship of other Christians without disobeying God.

 

[Charlie24]

This is the conclusion to that verse (how we follow it...the "therefore")

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Ask:
1. Does wearing worldly clothes that the world views as a status of secular power and material wealth defile you?

2. Does using components of worldly Western music (harmony, symmetrical metered structures) defile you?

3. Does using worldly instruments (piano, organ, guitar, drums, cymbals) defile you?


For me, wearing a suit (worldly clothes symbolic of secular power and material wealth) is far too worldly. It could defile me - not for the suit but as an expression of pride. For you it may not be.

We both use worldly musical instruments. You use a worldly style of music (worldly for the past few decades).



That which comes out of the person, that is what defiles the person. For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile the person. (Mk 7)


Condemning the praise of Believers defiles a person. It is pride, foolishness, wickedness, disobedience rising to the surface.


We cannot judge the worship of other Christians without disobeying God.

Ok Jon, that's what it is to you, nothing else I can say, you've said it all.

 

[JonC]

Ok Jon, that's what it is to you, nothing else I can say, you've said it all.

Not me....God said the important part of my post. The part you were disobeying is Rom 14 (I didn't list that one, just used it as a caution).


I seriously want to know if you believe God will accept the worship of a Christian wearing a suit and tie (worldly attire and a symbol of secular power and material wealth).

Would you not at least agree that wearing a suit and tie is much more worldly than using drums to create a praise songs that are unique (distinct from worldly music)?


I think I asked before and you dodged the question.

 

[JonC]

Oh...this thread reminded me....only a few more months to Britt Floyd

 

[Ben1445]

We're filled with emptiness
Re-living our mistakes
Why are you so afraid?
We never were alone
Yeah!

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone
Yeah!

Selfish anger now plagued with a thought
Our lives or nothing else
Hearts bleed from a lifetime of pain
We're reaching for empty dreams
Endless battle of death over life
Has allowed our lives to fade
So many times I've felt like a failure
Such distance brings hopelessness

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone

Just an ounce of fear with a cost
Pushed us into a place of regret
We never thought we would cower
We're losing ground with integrity
Innocence can't hold a candle
To light the path we chose
Through the blood of a savior
Our death shall set us free

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone

Yeah!
We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone
Yeah!
Yeah!

by War of Ages

(Yes Virginia,I am a trouble maker.)

Thanks Virginia, that was disturbing.

 

[JonC]

Thanks Virginia, that was disturbing.

I like some Christian Rock (like Switchfoot). Not a fan of Christian Metal (some Demon Hunter songs are good when the guy actually sings).

Obviously that type of music is not what we have been discussing (for those unaware). Christian Rock, Christian Rap, Christian Country, Christian Southern Rock....these are just those genres with Christian lyrics.

It is the same style of music the IFB folks listen to when driving around but the lyrics are Christian themed.

That is NOT Contemporary Worship Music.

 

[Ben1445]

I already have. There is no biblical basis to claim that the divine revelation in Galatians 1:3-5 about God's wanting to deliver us from this present evil world has no relevance concerning instrumental music. I am not interested in discussing any specific instruments, music, etc. It is regrettable that every thread about music is very quickly turned away from actual discussion of the Bible itself to discussions about nearly everything but the Bible. It is no wonder that the controversies are never resolved.

I agree that music is affected by this present evil world. To what extent is my question.