Tripartite Sheol?

[percho]

Thank you. That's a kind thing to say.

I understand.

Yes, so between the death of Christ and His bodily resurrection, His soul was in Hades, the "place of the dead." That does not mean it was in Hell, suffering like the rich man. The contexts of the two usages of the word is different.

Yes, I believe that to be correct.

Do you think this Greek word, 'ᾅδῃ," should ever have been translated hell? Would it not have been better to have left it as Hades?

BTW I know no Greek. Wasn't a wiz in English. Never the less.

Does the language of and the use of the dative of V 23 imply at the resurrection this is taking place rather than upon entering Hades?

 

[37818]

shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

When do you believe that takes place according to the word of God?

I believe it will take place post the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Normal volcanic activity.

 

[percho]

Normal volcanic activity.

Could be there a lot of them.

 

[37818]

Could be there a lot of them.

How many volcanoes are there now world wide?

 

[percho]

How many volcanoes are there now world wide?

Have no clue and ain't gong to google

 

[37818]

How many volcanoes are there now world wide?

Volcanoes, explained

Get more information about volcanoes from National Geographic.

www.nationalgeographic.com

[Article has belief of over billions of years]

 

[John of Japan]

Do you think this Greek word, 'ᾅδῃ," should ever have been translated hell? Would it not have been better to have left it as Hades?

BTW I know no Greek. Wasn't a wiz in English. Never the less.

Assuming we are still talking about Luke 16:23, then yes, "Hell" is the correct translation. The context makes the difference; it very clearly refers to a place of punishment for the rich man, and not just the place of the dead. The Louw-Nida lexicon says in the definition of ἁδης (hades), "It is indeed possible that in addressing a GrecoRoman audience Luke would have used ᾍδῃ ["Hades" dative--JoJ] in a context implying punishment and torment, since this was a typical Greco-Roman view of the next world."

Does the language of and the use of the dative of V 23 imply at the resurrection this is taking place rather than upon entering Hades?

No, the dative is there because of the preposition ἐν (en), which always takes the dative and no other case. So, "in Hell...."

 

[Van]

I believe bosom has to do with close relationship or like relationship.

The beggar died in a relationship relative to righteousness and or to God as did father Abraham.

According to faith the beggar died. The faith spoken of here: Rom 4:16 NKJV Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

The bosom of the Abraham is not a place but a condition/relationship relative to God. IMHO

Please address post #43. For example, "died in faith" means died believing in God."

 

[percho]

Please address post #43. For example, "died in faith" means died believing in God."

I will try.
Gal 3:23 definitely states; Before the yet coming the faith, that under law they were together locked up into, the about being faith to be revealed
The next verse states the law was their schoolmaster bringing them Christ that out of faith [that faith that came and was revealed in Christ] they may be justified [made righteous].
Romans 5:19 says that by the obedience of the one the many shall be made just [made righteous]

Therefore the obedience of the one and the faith that came and was revealed must be the same thing that justifies, makes righteous.

That was the faith to which those in Hebrews 11 died. The obedience of the one. That is also the obedience the Son learned in Heb 5.

The obedience of faith.

@John of Japan would like your thoughts also.

 

[John of Japan]

I will try.
Gal 3:23 definitely states; Before the yet coming the faith, that under law they were together locked up into, the about being faith to be revealed
The next verse states the law was their schoolmaster bringing them Christ that out of faith [that faith that came and was revealed in Christ] they may be justified [made righteous].
Romans 5:19 says that by the obedience of the one the many shall be made just [made righteous]

Therefore the obedience of the one and the faith that came and was revealed must be the same thing that justifies, makes righteous.

That was the faith to which those in Hebrews 11 died. The obedience of the one. That is also the obedience the Son learned in Heb 5.

The obedience of faith.

@John of Japan would like your thoughts also.

I'm not sure what is being asked of me here. What exactly would you like my thoughts on?

 

[Van]

I will try.
Gal 3:23 definitely states; Before the yet coming the faith, that under law they were together locked up into, the about being faith to be revealed
The next verse states the law was their schoolmaster bringing them Christ that out of faith [that faith that came and was revealed in Christ] they may be justified [made righteous].
Romans 5:19 says that by the obedience of the one the many shall be made just [made righteous]

Therefore the obedience of the one and the faith that came and was revealed must be the same thing that justifies, makes righteous.

That was the faith to which those in Hebrews 11 died. The obedience of the one. That is also the obedience the Son learned in Heb 5.

The obedience of faith.

@John of Japan would like your thoughts also.

Galatians 3:23 was not mentioned in post 43! So you made no try.

But, to explore yet another tangent brought in by your effort to disrupt discussion of Sheol, here goes:

1) Before faith came refers to before the public ministry of Jesus.

2) the Jews were kept in custody under the Law, the Old Covenant,

3) being confined until salvation through faith by grace was revealed in Jesus Christ.

I suggest you start using a bible that is better for your understanding, such as the NKJV or ESV or NASB.

Turning to Romans 5:19, it says by the sacrificial death of Christ, many, those whose faith God uses as the basis of election for salvation, will be made the righteousness of God in Him. The lost are "made righteous" in Him when they undergo the washing of regeneration. This is a simple concept.

 

[KenH]

The spirit of humans, whether saved or lost. Not the soul.

and I pray God your whole spirit, soul and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The "spirit" may intend the understanding, Job 32:8 which is the principal, leading, and governing faculty of the soul; and which being enlightened by the Spirit of God, a man knows himself, Christ Jesus, and the things of the Spirit, the truths of the Gospel, and receives and values them. The "soul" may include the will and affections, which are influenced by the understanding; and in a regenerate man the will is brought to a resignation to the will of God, and the affections are set upon divine things, and the body is the instrument of performing religious and spiritual exercises

 

[KenH]

Luke 16:27+29, Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

About the place of torment. Deuteronomy 32:22.

I don't see anything in those verses that disagrees with the spirits of Old Testament saints going to Heaven when they died. The bodies of God's elect will not be changed until they are raised at the second coming of Christ to establish the new heavens and the new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

 

[KenH]

Moses and Elijah before Jesus.
Revelation 11:4, These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Why did they have to come to Earth to be before God physically?
John 14:6

I don't see how those verses relate to the topic of this thread.

But concerning the two olive trees, William Hendrickson has this to say in his commentary, More Than Conquerors:

"The true Church is now represented under the symbolism of two witnesses. These witnesses symbolize the Church militant bearing testimony through its ministers and missionaries throughout the present dispensation. The fact that there are two witnesses emphasizes the missionary task of the Church [cf. Luke 10:1). The Lord sends His missionaries two by two; what the one lacks the other supplies. Now the Church as an organization, functioning through its ministers and missionaries, will carry on this work for twelve hundred and sixty days. This is the period that extends from the moment of Christ’s ascension almost until the judgment day (cf. Revelation 12: 5, 6, 14). It is, of course, exactly the equal of forty-two months, for forty-two times thirty is twelve hundred and sixty—and of ‘a time, and times, and half a time’, which is three years and a half (Revelation 12: 14). It is the period of affliction; the present gospel age. The question may arise, why is that period expressed now in terms of months (verse 2) then in terms of days (verse 3)? Here our answer is a mere guess: in verse 2 we have the picture of a city that is being besieged and finally taken and trampled upon. Now, the duration of the siege of a city is very often expressed in terms of months. In verse 3, however, the two witnesses are described as prophesying; this is a day-by-day activity. Every day they bear witness, throughout the entire dispensation. They preach repentance and for this reason they are clothed in sackcloth."

 

[percho]

Hosea 13:14 YLT From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

1 Cor 15:55 NKJV
“O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn]

I understand the fn's the reason for including Hosea 13:14

YLT where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'


Who is that verse speaking of? Is it speaking of people who either by resurrection and or in a twinkling of an eye have been changed from corruption to incorruptible and mortal to immortal to inherit the kingdom of God?
Would this include people dead in Christ 1 Thes 4:14-18 and alive in Christ, that is the church?
When exactly does the above take place?

Where O Hades, thy victory? Sheol Hosea 13:14

When exactly will ultimately sin that brought forth death, the gates of Hades, not prevail against her, the church?

? in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ? For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ? and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ? And so; What does that mean?

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Van]

I had not realized that a faction of Christians do NOT believe the OT saints were all taken to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died, and had to wait there until they could be made "perfect" after Christ had died to provide the means to be made perfect.

Sheol is a Hebrew word, found about 65 times in the Old Testament, and refers to the abode of the dead, physically a hollowed out place in the earth, tomb or grace, and spiritually the "neither world" where the human spirits of those who died under the Old Covenant were taken. And here, scripture also points to two places, a place for believers and a place for unbelievers. Thus scripture presents, according to my understanding, a tripartite Sheol.

However there are many other views offered in the literature. Let us consider these views:

First we can dispense with disputing that "Sheol" is used as a place where the physical remains undergo corruption. I am not aware of anyone denying that usage. So let us turn to the spiritual "netherworld."

Not too many deny that Sheol is used in scripture to refer to where the human spirits of unbelievers are taken, a place of discomfort and punishment. There are several verses that indicate unbelievers go there, and additional verses that indicate believers will NOT go there.

Psalm 49:15 NET
But God will rescue my life from the power of Sheol; certainly he will pull me to safety. (Selah)

Here we see that when a believer physically dies, his or her soul is not abandoned to the place of discomfort, but is taken somewhere else. I see this other place as being Abraham's bosom.

To further muddy the waters, some claim Abraham's bosom is a dark dank place since it is within spiritual eye-shot of the dark and dank place in Hades. We know that Abraham was promised to go "to your fathers in peace." Not necessarily heaven but a gathering place for the OT saints. Genesis 15:15. Again, in Genesis 47:30 Jacob expected to go to "the fathers" again referring to a gathering place. A dark and dank place does not fit with a "place of comfort."

Finally, there is a persistent false claim Abraham's bosom refers to "Paradise." But no verse says or suggests any such thing. The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound.

Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.

 

[Ben1445]

I had not realized that a faction of Christians do NOT believe the OT saints were all taken to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died, and had to wait there until they could be made "perfect" after Christ had died to provide the means to be made perfect.

Sheol is a Hebrew word, found about 65 times in the Old Testament, and refers to the abode of the dead, physically a hollowed out place in the earth, tomb or grace, and spiritually the "neither world" where the human spirits of those who died under the Old Covenant were taken. And here, scripture also points to two places, a place for believers and a place for unbelievers. Thus scripture presents, according to my understanding, a tripartite Sheol.

However there are many other views offered in the literature. Let us consider these views:

First we can dispense with disputing that "Sheol" is used as a place where the physical remains undergo corruption. I am not aware of anyone denying that usage. So let us turn to the spiritual "netherworld."

Not too many deny that Sheol is used in scripture to refer to where the human spirits of unbelievers are taken, a place of discomfort and punishment. There are several verses that indicate unbelievers go there, and additional verses that indicate believers will NOT go there.

Psalm 49:15 NET
But God will rescue my life from the power of Sheol; certainly he will pull me to safety. (Selah)

Here we see that when a believer physically dies, his or her soul is not abandoned to the place of discomfort, but is taken somewhere else. I see this other place as being Abraham's bosom.

To further muddy the waters, some claim Abraham's bosom is a dark dank place since it is within spiritual eye-shot of the dark and dank place in Hades. We know that Abraham was promised to go "to your fathers in peace." Not necessarily heaven but a gathering place for the OT saints. Genesis 15:15. Again, in Genesis 47:30 Jacob expected to go to "the fathers" again referring to a gathering place. A dark and dank place does not fit with a "place of comfort."

Finally, there is a persistent false claim Abraham's bosom refers to "Paradise." But no verse says or suggests any such thing. The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound.

Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.

You can only one time, say honestly, that you “had not realized.”
Now that you have realized it, you can stop reposting the same thing and add something different to the thread.

 

[percho]

I believe All the OT saints died into Sheol and saw corruption.

Psalm 16:10 NKJV
For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

David wrote this relative to the Messiah, however he wrote it as such because all the people died unto Sheol.

IMHO the bosom of Abraham is a relationship term not a destination. The beggar died in a relationship to God as the same relationship Abraham had with God.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through [out of] faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

To all; Where it is stated in Gal 3:23 before of the yet coming, the faith that is speaking of what was told Abraham; In thee shall all nations be blessed.

In the shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, was the faith of Abraham.

Gal 3:9 so that those [out] of faith are blessed with [unto] the faithful Abraham,

OR

so that those [out] of [in thee shall all the nations be blessed] are blessed with [unto] in thee shall all the nations be blessed, Abraham.

Think verse 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Therefore know that only those who are of [in thee shall all the nations be blessed] are the sons of Abraham.

V 29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise -- heirs.


BTW exactly when did the following take place?
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Exactly when did those under law, the schoolmaster, find themselves under grace.

V 23 Before of the yet coming, the faith
v 25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor [law] are we,

Exactly when did the faith come?

 

[Van]

You can only one time, say honestly, that you “had not realized.”
Now that you have realized it, you can stop reposting the same thing and add something different to the thread.

1) I can say I had not realized, over and over. It is still true.

2) I repost updated posts in an effort to return to topic, rather than allow the avalanche of off topic posts to bury the truth.

3) I believe the OT saints were taken to Abraham's bosom, not Heaven, when they physically died.

4) I believe when you see "Sheol" in scripture, you must de-code the meaning as (a) grave, (b) place of discomfort for the unbelieving human spirits, or (c) place of comfort (Abraham's bosom) for the believers.

5) I believe Abraham's bosom is in view, when "the gathering place of the fathers" is mentioned.

6) I believe "Paradise" refers to Heaven, the third heaven, the abode of God, and NOT to the garden of Eden or to Abraham's bosom.

7) I believe no human spirit ascended to Heaven, the abode of God, until Christ died, providing the means of being "made perfect" by the washing of regeneration.

8) When Jesus said the thief would be with Him in Paradise, Jesus was NOT declaring His omnipresence.

9) I believe when Jesus told the thief, today you will be with Me in Paradise, that meant the thief would be made perfect and allowed entry into Heaven on the day of Christ's death.

 

[Van]

Psalm 139:8 is addressing God's presence throughout all creation. It has no application to the issues of this thread. The Divine Person's of the Trinity are often said to be in specific locations, such as in Matthew 6:9. The abode of God, the third heaven, Paradise is the specific location where the thief was with Jesus that day.