Human vs. Divine Side of Jesus

[Ben1445]

Well, the 'picture-story' is quite accurate. The Serpent most definitely, literally chased The Woman down through the millennia in order to devour The Son.

And it is literally an allegory. Israel is not a literal woman.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand that you believe that this was all a few years after the words were given to John. So if the thousand year reign started 2,000 years ago, what have we been doing for the last thousand years?

Per them, this must be the Messianiac Age

 

[JesusFan]

Do you literalize everything in Revelation? Or only those things you think should be literal?

I believe that the Second Coming has yet to happen, as that will be a literal physical event, that will result in literal physical resurrections at that time

 

[kyredneck]

I believe that the Second Coming has yet to happen, as that will be a literal physical event, that will result in literal physical resurrections at that time

I believe the biblical 'second coming' happened long ago.

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

 

[kyredneck]

• Matthew 24:30 (ESV): "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

Matthew Chapter 24

34​	Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

• Revelation 1:7 (ESV): "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him"
  .
• • Hebrews 9:28 (ESV): "...so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him".
  • Titus 2:13 (ESV): "...waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".
  • John 14:3 (ESV): "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also".
  • Revelation 22:12 (ESV): "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done".

Matthew Chapter 21

40​	When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41​	They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42​	Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43​	Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44​	And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45​	And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[kyredneck]

And it is literally an allegory. Israel is not a literal woman.

The celestial woman clothed with the sun, moon, and stars is Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.

The two women of Rev 12 and Rev 17 are the same two women of Galatians 4:23-26.

 

[Ascetic X]

Matthew Chapter 24

34​	Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

This word genea (generation) can convey the idea of a lineage, race, or type of people. In that sense, Jesus is saying “this people will not pass away” until all is fulfilled — implying that the Jewish people would continue to the end of the age. This interpretation finds support in the durable history of Israel despite many persecutions and dispersions.

​

 

[kyredneck]

Yea...

Luke Chapter 11

29​	And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation race is an evil generation race: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah.

Matthew Chapter 12

45​	Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation race.

They are a perverse and crooked generation.

 

[Ben1445]

The celestial woman clothed with the sun, moon, and stars is Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.

The two women of Rev 12 and Rev 17 are the same two women of Galatians 4:23-26.

So you, Paul, and I are on the same page with allegories.

 

[kyredneck]

So you, Paul, and I are on the same page with allegories.

Allegory, metaphor, simile, type/antitype, Anagogy...

 

[Marooncat79]

Christ has neither parts nor is divisble

 

[kyredneck]

Christ has neither parts nor is divisble

K.

[add]

Lol, we've been off topic for so long it took me a minute to understand your comment. You actually read the thread title!

 

[Ben1445]

Allegory, metaphor, simile, type/antitype, Anagogy...

Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Matthew Chapter 21

19​	And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

Revelation Chapter 18

20​	Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21​	And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22​	And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23​	and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24​	And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Matthew Chapter 23

33​	Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34​	Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35​	that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36​	Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37​	O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke Chapter 13

33​	Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34​	O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[JesusFan]

The celestial woman clothed with the sun, moon, and stars is Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.

The two women of Rev 12 and Rev 17 are the same two women of Galatians 4:23-26.

The Woman is national Israel

 

[JesusFan]

I believe the biblical 'second coming' happened long ago.

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Where was the general physical resurrection, where was the Messianic age issued in?

 

[Ben1445]

Matthew Chapter 21

19​	And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

I won’t look for that tree if I ever visit Israel.
But I don’t know where you get the idea that Israel is the spiritual fig tree.
There is a spiritual application, yes. But the disciples continued to bear fruit, so it wasn’t the nation of Israel that withered, it was a fig tree.

Revelation Chapter 18

20​	Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21​	And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22​	And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23​	and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24​	And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Last time I checked, Babylon is not Israel.

Matthew Chapter 23

33​	Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34​	Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35​	that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36​	Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37​	O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke Chapter 13

33​	Nevertheless I must go on my way to-day and to-morrow and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34​	O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Paul consented to the death of Stephen. And yes, Paul is Jewish.

 

[Ascetic X]

I won’t look for that tree if I ever visit Israel.
But I don’t know where you get the idea that Israel is the spiritual fig tree.
There is a spiritual application, yes. But the disciples continued to bear fruit, so it wasn’t the nation of Israel that withered, it was a fig tree.

In the Bible, the fig tree is a major symbol for the nation of Israel, representing its national, spiritual, and physical health. It signifies prosperity when flourishing (1 Kings 4:25) and, when barren or cursed, symbolizes spiritual decay, divine judgment, and the nation’s dispersion.

Key Symbolic Meanings:

• National Health & Blessing: A thriving fig tree signifies a secure and blessed Israel, with "sitting under one's vine and fig tree" representing peace.
• Spiritual Condition: Used by prophets to describe Israel's fruitfulness or lack thereof (Hosea 9:10, Jeremiah 8:13).
• Judgment and Restoration: Jesus cursing the fig tree (Matthew 21) symbolized judgment on a fruitless, rebellious nation. Conversely, the budding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) is widely interpreted as the restoration of Israel as a nation in the end times.
• End-Times Marker:
  In the Parable of the Fig Tree, the blossoming of the tree is interpreted as a sign that the end times are near, with many linking this to the 1948 rebirth of Israel.

 

[kyredneck]

I won’t look for that tree if I ever visit Israel.
But I don’t know where you get the idea that Israel is the spiritual fig tree.
There is a spiritual application, yes. But the disciples continued to bear fruit, so it wasn’t the nation of Israel that withered, it was a fig tree.


Last time I checked, Babylon is not Israel.



Paul consented to the death of Stephen. And yes, Paul is Jewish.

The “religion of the Jews” is as dead as dead can be.

 

[kyredneck]

Revelation Chapter 18

2​	And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.

10​	standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

16​	saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

18​	and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
19​	And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

21​	And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

Last time I checked, Babylon is not Israel.

This is where your literal hermeneutic fails you. 'The great city' is known also as Sodom, Egypt, and Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter 11

8​	And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

You should peek outside of the Dispensational box you’re in, expand your horizons, and do a little research into 'Mystery Babylon’. Many good books out there on the topic.