Eucharistic Divinity

[Cathode]

First of all, @Earth Wind and Fire, I want you to read this and tell me how the above is open minded.

Now, @Cathode, let me explain what I meant if you will indulge the length. Earlier, you posted something that I had read a long time ago but couldn't remember the reference - that being that under recent Catholic teaching Baptists and like faith evangelicals were not really "accursed" but brethren who had strayed. They even accept our baptism as valid for salvation. But what I remember also reading was that this applied to those Baptists acting in ignorance, not to anyone who after complete study and with full knowledge, stays with their Baptist faith. This especially applies to Baptist theologians and clergymen, with the tolerance being mainly for "ignorant" Baptist laymen.

What I was saying, which you find so outrageous and unacceptable, is me applying exactly the same scenario to you folks. There are, I believe, many practicing Catholic laymen, who have a deep and true personal devotion to Christ, but because of how they were raised in the only system of worship they know, practice methods of worship I find to be grave error. I see no reason they should be condemned, out of hand, for such error, any more than Luther or Calvin ever condemned all practicing Catholics to Hell - even though, as you said, the practice of worshipping a piece of bread is in reality, damnable heresy.

I hope that explains what I mean. The Pope, the priests, and Catholic theologians are in far more danger than a lay person raised in the Catholic church, or even a curious evangelical who found themselves in a shallow, man centered Protestant church, and decided to try something different.

The condemnation applied to the original heretics that divided the Church.

Those that came after are not under that.

But if a Protestant is convinced of the truth of Catholic teaching but does not convert, he goes against his own conscience. This is very grave matter.

Baptists are not a monolithic belief system as with all Bible aloner systems as you know, so I can’t say whose baptisms are recognised by the church. It would have to be a baptismal formula the Church accepts.

We are all culpable according to the degree of our knowledge, as knowledge informs conscience.

If someone is convinced that Catholics are worshipping bread, by conscience he should condemn the practice and do everything in his power to stop it.

Nothing draws down God’s anger like idolatry, but that anger will encompass those that did nothing after being convinced of it taking place.

Even though John MacArthur was wrong in his understanding of the Eucharist, thinking it was only bread, he was very right in his conscience to then condemn the idolatry he perceived.

If you think the Eucharist is just bread being given full Latria worship, your conscience thus informed rightly or wrongly, you are obliged to condemn that idolatry.

Do not go trying to find nuance and commonality with idolatry, at that point your conscience dictates total opposition to it, and it will condemn you if you don’t.

John MacArthur knows now that the Eucharist is Jesus, but he will not be condemned by his conscience for not opposing the idolatry he perceived in the Catholic Eucharist in his lifetime.

If you think the Eucharist is mere bread whilst knowing it is being given full Latria Adoration that belongs to God alone, you must condemn hard and condemn often, for your conscience and safeties sake.

 

[Cathode]

Well it would be a lot clearer if you would put up the complete quote and reference what was being refuted. It was a refutation of gnostics, not Baptist theology. The gnostics, among many errors, would have had a problem with the whole idea of Jesus Christ being God and at the same time man (flesh). Reread the above in that light and it makes more sense.

The fact is, you guys have no evidence from the early church fathers that the parade and pageantry we see is what they did. Worse, there is no evidence in scripture of this, nor is there any evidence of a functioning Catholic style priesthood.

What we do have is Ignatius’ understanding of the Eucharist, that it is the flesh of Christ, regardless of who he was writing to.

'They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. They who deny this gift of God are perishing ” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

This disciple of John is the reason Catholics believe what we believe, this is the Apostolic understanding of the Scriptures handed down.

Ignatius received the writings of John and Revelation but being a disciple of John he received the correct interpretation of those writings from John’s own lips.

Ignatius’ interpretation is John’s, that the Eucharist is Jesus flesh, the same flesh that was crucified and raised again.

Who has better credentials for understanding these scriptures?

Arrogant Zwingli 1500 years later or John’s own disciple, Bishop of Antioch, Martyr in the arena.
It was people like Ignatius that received and preserved John’s writings directly from John personally and held to John’s interpretation of them.

Think about it, it’s not just a symbolic interpretation of the Eucharist Ignatius is talking about, but the Flesh of Christ.

 

[Cathode]

The fact is, you guys have no evidence from the early church fathers that the parade and pageantry we see is what they did. Worse, there is no evidence in scripture of this, nor is there any evidence of a functioning Catholic style priesthood.

Yes, we do. The Bishop is central in Catholic structural governance over the Eucharist, we got this through Ignatius in the succession of the Apostles.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Bishop, Priest, Deacon. Same Catholic structure today and same Eucharist, which is the Flesh of Christ.
Same Catholic Church.

Antioch is the place where believers were first called Christian, but we see the Church called Catholic.

 

[Cathode]

Catholics today get there clergy structure from Apostolic times.
The disciples of the Apostles were set up this way. Bishops, Priests and Deacons.

Ignatius was appointed by the Apostles as Bishop of Antioch.
Under the Bishop is the presbytery the Priests and then the Deacons.

Same Catholic Clergical structure today.

Catholics have kept the same Clergy structure for 2000 years.

 

[Cathode]

The fact is, you guys have no evidence from the early church fathers that the parade and pageantry we see is what they did.

I don’t know what “parade and pageantry “ you are talking about.

But would you expect Christians to be parading anything in a time of gross persecution?

 

[Cathode]

What happens on receiving Jesus in The Holy Eucharist is the body and soul exchange of persons.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him “

We receive Jesus Heart and He receives our heart.

There is no closeness greater than this to Jesus in this world.

Jesus expands our hearts to Love, fills it with His Love, Life and Strength, and fits it for Eternity.
Heaven is intense overwhelming, overflowing Love, we here are very cold and dark compared to it.

Jesus knows us in the Eucharist because He walks and abides our inner halls.
And we walk and abide in His inner Halls and know Him.

We receive all Life from Him.

There are so many experiences I have had but can not explain them.
There is intense love and joy, but intense sorrow and agonies as well.

“Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!”

We abide in Him, His Temple.

 

[Cathode]

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

In the Eucharist the invitation has been sent out many times and many refuse.
They ignore Jesus voice.
Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink.
People must hear and believe his voice and open their door and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. It is Communion with Jesus Himself.

“I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.”

Jesus comes into us in the Eucharist and we into Him in Covenant Communion.

 

[Cathode]

“Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!”

In the Eucharist we experience the Goodness of Jesus and His Holiness is all encompassing fragrant incense.
Words don’t do this justice.

Jesus Perfections are endless, His Purity is flawless.
This is the foretaste Heaven.

We use human terms and images to describe the architecture of a temple. How does the Soul describe the architecture of Goodness, Love and Holiness.

These things can not be brought back by way of description.
Words don’t do it justice, they never will.

 

[DaveXR650]

I don’t know what “parade and pageantry “ you are talking about.

Sure you do. The series of bowings, crossings, multiple holding up and so on, all of which are done in a specific cadence, number of times, etc. And such would require very little in material wealth and could be done in a cave, but the fact that given the opportunity you make it ornate and opulent - that's something for you to explain. I don't mind discussion, but don't play dumb when you know exactly what I am referring to. This ceremony is what your own theologians claim is the center of Christian life and worship in that it is propitious and salvific. Thus, I guess, the curses pronounced on all those who refuse it.

You have said a mouthful, and I will be gone the whole day so I will reply later. What would help in the meantime is if you would reference your earlier statements re the idea that a Baptist who truly believed his erroneous doctrines is not subject to the curses in Trent. This to me would be a reversal of clear, prior teaching that is supposed to be without error. Who reversed this, and where is the reference to it?

 

[Cathode]

Sure you do. The series of bowings, crossings, multiple holding up and so on, all of which are done in a specific cadence, number of times, etc. And such would require very little in material wealth and could be done in a cave, but the fact that given the opportunity you make it ornate and opulent - that's something for you to explain. I don't mind discussion, but don't play dumb when you know exactly what I am referring to. This ceremony is what your own theologians claim is the center of Christian life and worship in that it is propitious and salvific. Thus, I guess, the curses pronounced on all those who refuse it.

You mean the Eucharistic celebration, The Mass.

“ God speaks about the sacrifices offered to him in every place by us Gentiles - that is the bread of the Eucharist and likewise the cup “ Justin Martyr 155 AD. Dialogue with Trypho.

Justin is referring to the prophecy of Malachi being fulfilled by the Eucharist.

Interesting the rabbis taught that only sacrifice that would remain when the Messiah came was the Todah which they translated in Greek as Eucharistia.

The Fathers understood that the Eucharist was sacrificial.

You have said a mouthful, and I will be gone the whole day so I will reply later. What would help in the meantime is if you would reference your earlier statements re the idea that a Baptist who truly believed his erroneous doctrines is not subject to the curses in Trent. This to me would be a reversal of clear, prior teaching that is supposed to be without error. Who reversed this, and where is the reference to it?

Look up “separated brethren”, there is a stack of documents on it.
Can’t chase all your tennis balls for you. I’m a garden contractor not a professor.

And I already explained that at an individual level it is down to knowledge and conscience.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was going to marry a Jewish gal years ago when I was in college but the condition was to convert to Judaism… so I took instructions from a local Rabbi and I learned things. 1. They are required to do about 630 good works ( mitzvah’s), not so much to do them as an exercise but to help God bring about paradise on this earth. That should be the activity burned into the DNA of every Jew. So let’s not compare hthat with the RCC or any Goyem for that matter. It’s a very noble goal but really ignored by many Jews who just go through rituals to identify as Jews.

They also don’t accept Jesus as messiah so Catholics of all stripes recognize Christ as Lord & Savior.

My mother always said, “You go to your church and I will go to mine”… I seriously don’t think that by arguing doctrines will change anyones mind.

Well it would be a lot clearer if you would put up the complete quote and reference what was being refuted. It was a refutation of gnostics, not Baptist theology. The gnostics, among many errors, would have had a problem with the whole idea of Jesus Christ being God and at the same time man (flesh). Reread the above in that light and it makes more sense.

The fact is, you guys have no evidence from the early church fathers that the parade and pageantry we see is what they did. Worse, there is no evidence in scripture of this, nor is there any evidence of a functioning Catholic style priesthood.

I consider

Well it would be a lot clearer if you would put up the complete quote and reference what was being refuted. It was a refutation of gnostics, not Baptist theology. The gnostics, among many errors, would have had a problem with the whole idea of Jesus Christ being God and at the same time man (flesh). Reread the above in that light and it makes more sense.

The fact is, you guys have no evidence from the early church fathers that the parade and pageantry we see is what they did. Worse, there is no evidence in scripture of this, nor is there any evidence of a functioning Catholic style priesthood.

I consider, (old catholic) priest style, as much more favorable to clergy modeling as opposed to what I see out there today. I’ll give you an example the Roman Catholic priests
that I grew up with, would visit you. At your home and pray with you, work out a plan to give you the capability of feeding your family and indeed raising them up as Catholics. Don’t know of any modern Protestant groups even going through that exercise. No, it may be overwhelming to be able to meet with everyone in the home but then again what are the churches who prioritize for example, my mother was a widow and she had three children and not the income to feed and clothe them. Well the Catholic Church helped,met with her, devised the plan got it done. Frankly, that’s the human touch. The God touch which helps people and in most churches is totally lacking today.
I myself, from looking for another church, have a criterion that I insist upon is that the Eucharist be served at every service. I totally believe in “Do this in remembrance of Jesus Christ.”The Lutherans do it weekly as well as other sacramental church’s do it, so why not have the Baptist do it , but of course they won’t. Best thing I could hope for with the Baptist Church is that they do it once a month generally at the beginning of the month and they serve you a little snack pack style bread and wine /grape drink in a plastic size package. In my eyes that’s not providing you the Eucharist so I guess I’m stuck, but I’ve worked it out. I’ll go to the Lutheran Church on the days that they provide communion which is every week and I’ll go to the independent Baptist church on the day that they provide their little snack pack electric band service. Honestly, this or any NJ baptist church struggles with providing good rousing sermons but I consider it a respite for much needed sleep and their bands an opportunity to go to the bathroom and make a phone call or two , so…done and done.

Lastly, God bless the Primitive Baptists for keeping the faith in tact and please Lord send them here before churches completely collapse

 

[Cathode]

The inner life is a journey of self knowledge and knowledge of God at the same time.

We have many loves we must subordinate to the one love of Jesus.
Apart from the usual loves of youth, we can grow particularly attached to particular things.
Mine were Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and any time spent not hunting and fishing was time wasted.

These things have their place, but not at the expense of the One Love.

Wine Collections of South Australian Shiraz, quality cigars and quality firearms was emblematic of a desire for something far higher.

The Soul always seeks fulfilment and only finds true satisfaction in Jesus.

The Eucharist gives the “Glad Heart”

 

[Cathode]

.Honestly, this or any NJ baptist church struggles with providing good rousing sermons but I consider it a respite for much needed sleep and their bands an opportunity to go to the bathroom and make a phone call or two , so…done and done.

LOL

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The inner life is a journey of self knowledge and knowledge of God at the same time.

We have many loves we must subordinate to the one love of Jesus.
Apart from the usual loves of youth, we can grow particularly attached to particular things.
Mine were Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and any time spent not hunting and fishing was time wasted.

These things have their place, but not at the expense of the One Love.

Wine Collections of South Australian Shiraz, quality cigars and quality firearms was emblematic of a desire for something far higher.

The Soul always seeks fulfilment and only finds true satisfaction in Jesus.

The Eucharist gives the “Glad Heart”

As is side note: I particulllary enjoyed Australian wine supplied to me buy a sweet Irish guy who owned a liquor store by me. One day while ringing me up, he asked me why I was drinking a certain wine and what food it was being served with. No he said, put this back and try this wine from Australia… it was delicious and affordable. From then on I prefer it Australian wine

 

[Cathode]

As is side note: I particulllary enjoyed Australian wine supplied to me buy a sweet Irish guy who owned a liquor store by me. One day while ringing me up, he asked me why I was drinking a certain wine and what food it was being served with. No he said, put this back and try this wine from Australia… it was delicious and affordable. From then on I prefer it Australian wine

The world is catching on to Australian Reds especially the big flavoured Shiraz and Cab Savs, which are very dry with no sweetness at all, which makes them very good with steaks and roast beef.
Dry wine really clears your palate to taste your food.
I hardly know anyone that drinks sweet reds anymore, everyone goes for driest reds possible. They’ll all be serving it with food, it is the food enhancer.
A glass of bone dry Cab Sav with a steak is perfect.
Sweet wines I can’t stand unless it’s a port. But you don’t drink port with dinner.

 

[Salty]

Six Hour warning
This thread will close no sooner than 0400 GMT (Sun) // on Sat 10 pm EST / 7 PM

 

[DaveXR650]

Look up “separated brethren”, there is a stack of documents on it.
Can’t chase all your tennis balls for you. I’m a garden contractor not a professor.

It's a ball that you served. I just think if I remember correctly there are caveats that you left out, possibly unintentionally, or not. But thanks, I will try search using those words. Do you remember if this was an official church statement or a theologians opinion?

And I already explained that at an individual level it is down to knowledge and conscience.

Yes you did but what I don't understand is why you seem offended at the prospect of me giving the same grace to a Catholic worshipper who I am repeatedly conceding is indeed an actual Christian and fellow believer even if my beliefs on the Mass and transubstantiation are total disagreement. Why can a catholic offer this conciliation to us and at the same time insist that I "cannot have it both ways", as you want to do?

Look. This thread is about to close. That, and the fact that this thread is one of proselytizing and violates clearly the rules of this forum for "other Christian denominations", which rules @Salty himself wrote, now that I know he has seen this makes me wonder about the whole Baptist Board setup and why it went as long as it did. So. I have given all my reasons that the Eucharist is not divine in itself and there is nothing I can say. You and @Earth Wind and Fire should use the remaining 6 hours to sort out your wine lists. Good day.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's a ball that you served. I just think if I remember correctly there are caveats that you left out, possibly unintentionally, or not. But thanks, I will try search using those words. Do you remember if this was an official church statement or a theologians opinion?

Yes you did but what I don't understand is why you seem offended at the prospect of me giving the same grace to a Catholic worshipper who I am repeatedly conceding is indeed an actual Christian and fellow believer even if my beliefs on the Mass and transubstantiation are total disagreement. Why can a catholic offer this conciliation to us and at the same time insist that I "cannot have it both ways", as you want to do?

Look. This thread is about to close. That, and the fact that this thread is one of proselytizing and violates clearly the rules of this forum for "other Christian denominations", which rules @Salty himself wrote, now that I know he has seen this makes me wonder about the whole Baptist Board setup and why it went as long as it did. So. I have given all my reasons that the Eucharist is not divine in itself and there is nothing I can say. You and @Earth Wind and Fire should use the remaining 6 hours to sort out your wine lists. Good day.

I don’t drink anymore nor do I smoke weed, tobacco… nore do I take drugs unless I’m in excruciating pain I did mention that those days are in the past.

 

[Ascetic X]

You and @Earth Wind and Fire should use the remaining 6 hours to sort out your wine lists. Good day.

We were talking about the body and blood of the Savior. Then it turned into praise for Australian wines! Wish it would have remained reverent.

 

[JonC]

Jesus came to us in His humanity so that we could share in His Divinity.

In the Eucharist we are divinised to share in God’s immortality, Christ’s Flesh and Blood gives Eternal Life to our flesh and blood.

The first statement is true. The second is not as the first is not predicated by Jesus to performing a remembrance (a memorial by definition).