Can Predestination and Free Will Coexist?

[JesusFan]

Your argument makes no sense.

Mark 10:17-18, . . . when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

And jesus is God, so He alone is the only "good person"

 

[37818]

And jesus is God, so He alone is the only "good person"

Are you a Modalist? In the Trinity there are three distinct Persons who are the one and the same God!

 

[Nolan Stengel]

Adam before he fell had the sinless humanity nature, same one Jesus was born with, and the Fall caused his nature to become now fallen and spiritual dead and in bondage now to that fallen human nature

Are you saying that Jesus could have fallen too? If so, that is called Nestorianism and has been condemned as heresy for for centuries.

 

[JesusFan]

Are you a Modalist? In the Trinity there are three distinct Persons who are the one and the same God!

NOT a Modalist, nor unitarian, nor oneness, nor arianism, but hold to trinitarian, and ONLY Jesus among the 3 Persons of Godhead was and is a man, the God man

 

[JesusFan]

Are you saying that Jesus could have fallen too? If so, that is called Nestorianism and has been condemned as heresy for for centuries.

No, stating that Jesus has within Himself nature of Deity, God, and also sinless humanity, and being God in Human Flesh, was impossible for Him to actually ever sin

 

[Tea]

If what is meant by free will is the equivalent to an autonomously free will, then the short answer is no. As R.C. Sproul once said, when our will runs up against God's, we lose.

 

[Ben1445]

If what is meant by free will is the equivalent to an autonomously free will, then the short answer is no. As R.C. Sproul once said, when our will runs up against God's, we lose.

Wouldn’t that mean we win?

 

[Believeth]

Wouldn’t that mean we win?

No, the will of the creature can't thwart the will of the creator, including God's will in the affairs of men and in salvation.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

 

[Silverhair]

If what is meant by free will is the equivalent to an autonomously free will, then the short answer is no. As R.C. Sproul once said, when our will runs up against God's, we lose.

God's will is that we be free to make real choices in regard to our salvation.

So whether we choose to trust in Him or to reject Him we are still operating within His will.

 

[Silverhair]

No, the will of the creature can't thwart the will of the creator, including God's will in the affairs of men and in salvation.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

How does one choosing to trust in or to reject God thwart the will of God?

 

[th1bill]

I'm fairly new here and have seen some recent discussion on this topic. Recently I picked up Normal Geisler's "Chosen But Free". He believed that there could be a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. These are a few passages in his book.

This is not to say there are no mysteries in the Christian faith. Paul said, "Great indeed... is the mystery of godliness" (1 Tim. 3:16). But a mystery is a truth that goes beyond reason without going against reason. It is beyond our ability to comprehend, but not against our ability to apprehend. Surely the doctrines of the Trinity and of the incarnation fit into this category. We know that they are true, even if we cannot completely explain exactly how they are true. For example, we know that there are three persons and only one nature in God, but we don't fully understand how this can be so. What we do know is that it is not a contradiction; God is one in one sense (nature) and three in another sense (persons), so the law of noncontradiction is not being violated. We suggested that divine sovereignty and human freedom fall into this same category-they are a mystery. We know both are true, but we do not know exactly how they fit together. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 132

For the extreme sovereignty view, the ultimate question is: Who made the devil do it? Or, more precisely, who caused Lucifer to sin? If free choice is doing what one desires, and if all good desires come from God, then it follows logically that God is responsible for Lucifer's sin against God! After all, he had no evil nature to give him evil desires, and if God had given him a good desire, then Lucifer would not have rebelled. But it is contradictory to say that God ever could be against God. God is essentially good. He cannot sin (Heb. 6:18); He cannot even look with approval on sin. Habakkuk said to God: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong" (Hab. 1:13). James reminds us that "when tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" (James 1:13). So, if for no other reason, the strong sovereignty position must be rejected because it is contradictory, and the Bible exhorts us to "avoid contradictions" (1 Tim. 6:20). Opposites cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. God cannot be good and not good. He cannot be for His own essential good and be against it by giving Lucifer the desire to sin against Him. In short, God cannot be for Himself and against Himself at the same time and in the same sense. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 33

God made only good creatures. After almost every day of Creation the Bible says, "and it was good" (Gen. 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). And after the last day, the Bible declares, "It was very good" (1:31). Solomon added, "This only have I found: God made mankind upright..." (Eccl. 7:29). We are told explicitly that "every creature of God is good" (1 Tim. 4:4). And an absolutely good God cannot make an evil thing. Only a perfect creature can come from the hands of a perfect Creator. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 34

They not only can but also do coexist. The issue is man's slanted view of our Holy God, Yehovah. God created this time/space continuum and is not constrained within our sphere. God knew every person by name, some six thousand years ago. He is Omnipresent, meaning He is currently viewing the present, past, and extreme future, all symotaniously. (Isa. 46:10) God knew, over six thousand years ago, the very second I would exercise my free will to become His child and six thousand years ago recorded the event predestining my fate.

I pray Yehovah uses this feeble attempt to help understanding this issue.

Shalom!

 

[Ascetic X]

Free will exists and is mentioned early in the Bible. God tells Cain he has the choice to do what is right or not. Cain is also advised to master sin, not let sin enslave him.

Genesis 4

6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?

7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

 

[Believeth]

How does one choosing to trust in or to reject God thwart the will of God?

I do not believe that human beings are morally neutral; therefore, I do not believe it is the will of God to offer the Gospel as a gift that can be either accepted or rejected in that sense.

 

[Believeth]

Free will exists and is mentioned early in the Bible. God tells Cain he has the choice to do what is right or not. Cain is also advised to master sin, not let sin enslave him.

Of course, Cain had a free will that can only be defined as one who had fallen in Adam. The Son still had to set him free from the bondage of sin—not something that can be accomplished of his own accord.

 

[Ben1445]

No, the will of the creature can't thwart the will of the creator, including God's will in the affairs of men and in salvation.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

In other words, works out for our good.

 

[Silverhair]

I do not believe that human beings are morally neutral; therefore, I do not believe it is the will of God to offer the Gospel as a gift that can be either accepted or rejected in that sense.

They do not have to be morally neutral. They just have to have the ability to make real choices and that is just what we see in scripture.

“There is no saint without a past, no sinner without a future.” Augustine

Then you will have to tell Jesus that He was doing something that He was not supposed to do.

Luk_4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

And do the same with Paul

Rom_15:20 And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man's foundation;

Act 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

If it is not the will of God to offer the Gospel as a gift that can be either accepted or rejected then what were Jesus and Paul doing? Actually what are all those preachers doing who preach salvation through faith in the risen Christ?

 

[Believeth]

In other words, works out for our good.

For those who are in Christ, not for those who are in Adam.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Believeth]

They just have to have the ability to make real choices and that is just what we see in scripture.

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

A person who is fallen in Adam cannot make the choice on their own to be raised in Christ.

If it is not the will of God to offer the Gospel as a gift that can be either accepted or rejected then what were Jesus and Paul doing?

They were preaching to everyone, but only those who had been set free by the Son were able to accept the Gospel message.

 

[Silverhair]

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

A person who is fallen in Adam cannot make the choice on their own to be raised in Christ.



They were preaching to everyone, but only those who had been set free by the Son were able to accept the Gospel message.

Yes the Son does make us free when we have freely trusted in Him not before.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Do you know of another reason that He would do it?

You seem to think that one is saved prior to them actually believing in Him.

That is not biblical but it is calvinism. So I would have to conclude that you believe the word of man over the word of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"Yes the Son does make us free when we have freely trusted in Him not before."