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Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour! 4

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BF you asked "Are you saying Jesus the Saviour is the Saviour of them who die in their sins ? Yes or No"

The answer is YES, not because I say it but because the the word of God does.

Christ came as the savior of the whole world BF. The fact that many will not trust in Him does not change the fact.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

You can either believe the bible BF or you can continue to follow your false view but only one is true.
You are making the assumption that 'world' in the Bible always means 'all the people in the world.'
Have a read of these: A.W. PINK AND THE DEFINITION OF "KOSMOS" The Scriptures and the World by Arthur W. Pink

Also, in 1 John 2:2, the words 'the sins of' are not found in any ancient manuscript. They are in italics in the KJV.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Thats works. Again Trusting is an action the person does. You contribute salvation to your actions, not Christs actions.

So your telling me that you disagree with the clear word of God.

How stubborn can one person be? You are so committed to your false religion that you will deny the word of God.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You are making the assumption that 'world' in the Bible always means 'all the people in the world.'
Have a read of these: A.W. PINK AND THE DEFINITION OF "KOSMOS" The Scriptures and the World by Arthur W. Pink

Also, in 1 John 2:2, the words 'the sins of' are not found in any ancient manuscript. They are in italics in the KJV.

Martin you are making the assumption as to what I think. I look at the context which is something that calvinist it would seem do not do.

1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for ********* the whole world.

So does taking the words 'the sins of' out of the sentence make it say something different Martin?

He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins
and not only for ours
but also for the whole world.

As for A W Pink it really does not matter what he thinks the word world means it does matter what the word world means in the context of the bible.


Part # 1
The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

World G2889



κόσμος

kósmos; gen. kósmou, masc. noun probably from koméō (n.f.), to take care of. World, with its primary meaning being order, regular disposition and arrangement.

(I) A decoration, ornament (1Pe_3:3; Sept.: Exo_33:4-6; Jer_4:30).

(II) Order of the universe, the world.

(A) The universe, heavens and earth (Mat_13:35; Mat_24:21; Luk_11:50; Joh_17:5, Joh_17:24; Act_17:24; Rom_1:20; Heb_4:3). Metonym for the inhabitants of the universe (1Co_4:9). Figuratively and symbolically, a world of something, as an aggregate such as in Jas_3:6, "a world of iniquity" (cf. Sept.: Pro_17:6).

(B) The earth, this lower world as the abode of man. (1) The then-known world and particularly the people who lived in it (Mar_16:15; Joh_16:21, Joh_16:28; Joh_21:25; 1Ti_3:16; 1Pe_5:9; 2Pe_3:6). To come or be sent into the world means to be born, as in Joh_1:9. To go forth into the world means to appear before men as in Joh_3:17, Joh_3:19; Joh_6:14; 1Ti_1:15; Heb_10:5; 1Jn_4:1, 1Jn_4:9; 2Jn_1:7. Hyperbolically (Mat_4:8, "all the kingdoms of the world"; see Rom_1:8). (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat_5:14; Mat_13:38; Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Rom_3:6, Rom_3:19; 1Co_4:13; 2Co_5:19; Heb_11:7; 2Pe_2:5; 1Jn_2:2). Hyperbolically, the world for the multitude, everybody (Joh_7:4 "show thyself to the world" means manifest thyself, do not remain in secret; Joh_12:19); metaphorically, that is openly (Joh_14:22; Joh_18:20; 2Co_1:12). It also stands for the heathen world, the same as tá éthnē (G1484), "the nations" (a.t. [Rom_11:12, Rom_11:15 {cf. Luk_12:30}]).

(C) The present world, the present order of things, as opposed to the kingdom of Christ; and hence, always with the idea of transience, worthlessness, and evil both physical and moral, the seat of cares, temptations, irregular desires. It is thus nearly equivalent to ho aiṓn hoútos (aiṓn [G165], age; hoútos [G3778], this), this age. (1) Generally with hoútos (G3778), this (Joh_12:25, "in this world," during this life; Joh_18:36, "of this world," meaning this earth; 1Co_5:10; Eph_2:2; 1Jn_4:17). Specifically the wealth and enjoyments of this world, this life's goods (Mat_16:26; Mar_8:36; Luk_9:25; 1Co_3:22; 1Co_7:31, 1Co_7:33-34; Gal_6:14; Jas_4:4; 1Jn_2:17). (2) Metonymically for the men of this world as opposed to those who seek the kingdom of God, e.g., with hoútos, this (1Co_1:20; 1Co_3:19); as subject to Satan, the ruler of this world (Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11); without hoútos (Joh_7:7; Joh_14:17; Joh_16:8; Joh_17:6, Joh_17:9; 1Co_1:21; 2Co_7:10; Php_2:15; Jas_1:27).
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You are making the assumption that 'world' in the Bible always means 'all the people in the world.'
Have a read of these: A.W. PINK AND THE DEFINITION OF "KOSMOS" The Scriptures and the World by Arthur W. Pink

Also, in 1 John 2:2, the words 'the sins of' are not found in any ancient manuscript. They are in italics in the KJV.

Part # 2




The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

World G2889

(III) Idiomatic expressions with kósmos:

(A) A rhetorical expression for the great majority of people in a particular place (Joh_12:19).

(B) Almost equivalent to the modern phrase "the public" (Joh_7:4 [cf. Joh_18:20]).

(C) Means of sustenance for the body is called bíos (G979), i.e., means of livelihood. Bíon toú kósmou (1Jn_3:17), the material things provided in the world.

(D) "The tongue . . . a world of iniquity" (Jas_3:6), the sum total.

(E) The world before the flood (Heb_11:7; 2Pe_2:5; 2Pe_3:6). The population of the world then and its accumulations of wealth and the products of its labor are no doubt chiefly in view; yet the comparison in 2Pe_3:6-7 with "the heavens and the earth, which are now," suggests a sweeping away at that time of the whole order of nature.

(IV) Kósmos used with ethical meaning:

(A) As material and transitory, the world presents a contrast with that which is spiritual and eternal. So Paul regards it in Gal_4:3; Gal_6:14; Col_2:8, Col_2:20. His general teaching is that the Law and its ordinances belong to an external sphere, the things that are seen (2Co_4:18) which lose their value through Christ's death, in comparison with the things spiritual. So it should be with all Christians. Here he is not considering the world to be evil as indeed the Law is not evil, but only of temporary value (see 1Co_7:31, 1Co_7:34 [cf. Luk_12:30]).

(B) Devotion to the things of the world produces a certain attitude of mind which under the sense of laws is manifested in "the sorrow of the world" which is not "godly sorrow" (2Co_7:10). The things of this world are thus spoken of as altogether incomplete (1Co_1:27-28; 1Co_4:13; Jas_2:5). The world has its own wisdom which does not have concern for God (Joh_1:10; 1Co_1:20-21; 1Co_3:19) and which cannot receive the Spirit of truth (Joh_14:17). There is a spirit of this world (1Co_2:12). Those who have this spirit are described as being "of the world" or "of this world" (Joh_8:23; 1Jn_4:4-5). In contrast, Christ's disciples are described as being "not of the world" (Joh_15:19; Joh_17:14 [cf. 1Co_5:10]). The state of the world arising from the influence of this worldly spirit is one of dire moral corruption (Eph_2:2; Jas_1:27; Jas_4:4; 2Pe_1:4; 2Pe_2:20; 1Jn_2:15-17).

(C) The word "world" denotes the mass of people who are hostile or at least indifferent to the truth and the followers of Christ (Joh_7:7; Joh_16:20, Joh_16:33; 1Jn_3:1, 1Jn_3:13; 1Jn_4:4-5).

(D) The world is dominated by the evil one (Joh_12:31; 1Jn_4:4-5).

(E) The world is the object of judgment and saving mercy (Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-19; Joh_4:42; Joh_6:33, Joh_6:51; Joh_8:12, Joh_8:26; Joh_9:5; Joh_12:46-47; Rom_3:19; Rom_11:12, Rom_11:15; 1Co_6:2; 2Co_5:19). Men are the objects of judgment individually but they will also be objects of a collective judgment or a collective restoration (cf. Rom_8:19 f.).

(F) The Holy Spirit has a special office in regard to the world, distinct from that which He exercises toward believers (Joh_16:8-11).

(G) Through faith, the Christian can overcome the world, i.e., no doubt, the worldly spirit in himself and the opposition of worldly men and the world's ruler (1Jn_4:4; 1Jn_5:4-5).

(V) Kósmos, at times, bears a distinction to aiṓn (G165), age, a period of time, but a much longer one than we usually think of, probably indeed the whole period during which the present order of nature has continued and shall continue. Aiṓn is used in many places with much the same connotation as "world." It is often rendered by this word in our translations though aiṓn should often be distinguished from kósmos, even where the two seem to express the same idea as in 1Co_1:20 and Eph_2:2-3. This aiṓn is contrasted to that which is to come (Mat_12:32; Mar_10:30; Luk_18:30; Heb_6:5). We read of its cares (Mat_13:22; Mar_4:19); its sons (Luk_16:8; Luk_20:34-35); its rulers, i.e., the kings and great ones of the earth (1Co_2:6, 1Co_2:8); its wisdom (1Co_1:20; 1Co_2:6; 1Co_3:18-19); its fashion, to which the Christian must not be conformed (Rom_12:2). It is evil (Gal_1:4) and under the dominion of the evil one (2Co_4:4). This use of aiṓn with an ethical meaning is not difficult to understand, easier indeed than the corresponding and more common one of kósmos. It is otherwise with the expression in Heb_1:2, "He made the worlds [aiṓnas, ages]." Here, hoi aiṓnes, the ages, seems to mean the sum of the periods of time including all that is manifested in and through them.

Deriv.: kosméō (G2885), to order, put in order, decorate, adorn; kosmikós (G2886), worldly, earthly; kósmios (G2887), well- ordered, well-mannered, decorous; kosmokrátor (G2888), a world ruler.

Syn.: aiṓn (G165), age; oikouménē (G3625), the inhabited earth, civilization; gḗ (G1093), earth as arable land, but also the earth as a whole, the world in contrast to the heavens.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God doing after we have done something is not grace, but works

So you disagree with the word of God.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
 
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Psalty

Active Member
You are making the assumption that 'world' in the Bible always means 'all the people in the world.'
Have a read of these: A.W. PINK AND THE DEFINITION OF "KOSMOS" The Scriptures and the World by Arthur W. Pink
The question is not what a hypercalvinist thinks, its what does the word or phrase mean in context.


Also, in 1 John 2:2, the words 'the sins of' are not found in any ancient manuscript. They are in italics in the KJV.
For the KJV, but not the Nasb95.
And the reason they are not is that it is referrant back to “propitiation for our sins”. The greek is not required to duplicate the noun again.
The context is clear, its not just for our (believers sins), but the sins of the world.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The question is not what a hypercalvinist thinks, its what does the word or phrase mean in context.
A.W. Pink was not a hyper-Calvinist. He believed that the Gospel should be be preached to all and that all those who believe will be saved. Read his biography by Iain Murray.
For the KJV, but not the Nasb95.

And the reason they are not is that it is referrant back to “propitiation for our sins”. The greek is not required to duplicate the noun again.
The context is clear, its not just for our (believers sins), but the sins of the world.
You are quite wrong. John 2:2, NASB (1995). '... And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for those of the whole world.' The NASB puts 'those of' in italics, just as the KJV puts 'the sins of' in italics. The words are not there.
The reason, for the benefit of you and @Silverhair, is that the world - planet earth; also the whole Cosmos - is an inanimate object, and cannot sin. But there was a curse placed upon planet earth ('the ground') in Genesis 3:17 because of sin. It was still there in Gen. 5:29, and it is still the case in Romans 8:20-22. 'For the creation was subjected to frustration, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it [i.e. God] in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth [c.f. Matt. 24:7-8] together until now.' It is still the case today, but Christ has redeemed, not only His people, but the whole world, and there is the glorious hope that there will be set free and the curse removed. So we read in Rev. 22:3 that there will be a new heavens and new earth where, 'There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it.'

The cross of Christ propitiates the Father not only towards His errant people, but also towards His creation which was cursed because of man's sin; but that curse will be removed when sin and Satan are finally defeated.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thats universalism.
It certainly is. If Christ has propitiated the Father in respect of the sins of everybody in the whole world, then He is propitiated and evryone is saved.
'Payment God will not twice demand;
Once at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And the again from me.'
Augustus Toplady.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Complete WordStudy Dictionary

World G2889
Thank you for posting all that, though I'm not quite sure what you hoped to accomplish by it.
What you have proved beyond a doubt is that A.W. Pink was entirely right that the Greek word kosmos can, and usually does, mean a whole lot more that simply 'all the people in the world.'
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I know that most people on this board do not open links, so here is the Pink quote written out.

It may appear to some of our readers that the exposition we have given of John 3:16 in the chapter on “Difficulties and Objections” is a forced and unnatural one, inasmuch as our definition of the term “world” seems to be out of harmony with the meaning and scope of this word in other passages, where, to supply the world of believers (God’s elect) as a definition of “world” would make no sense. Many have said to us, “Surely, ‘world’ means world, that is, you, me, and everybody.” In reply we would say: We know from experience how difficult it is to set aside the “traditions of men” and come to a passage which we have heard explained in a certain way scores of times, and study it carefully for ourselves without bias Nevertheless, this is essential if we would learn the mind of God.
Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term “world” (as a translation of “kosmos”) occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word “world” in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word “kosmos,” and its English equivalent “world,” is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:

“Kosmos” is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 – “God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth.” is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17: 24 – “God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth.”

“Kosmos” is used of the earth: John 13:1; Eph. 1:4, etc., etc.- “When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end.” “Depart out of this world” signifies, leave this earth. “According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

“Kosmos” is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out”— compare Matt. 4:8 and I John 5:19, R. V.

“Kosmos” is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3: 19, etc.—”Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

“Kosmos” is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6 “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.” Believers do not “hate” Christ, so that “the world” here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. “God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world.” Here is another passage where “the world” cannot mean “you, me, and everybody,” for believers will not be “judged” by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view. is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6 “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.” Believers do not “hate” Christ, so that “the world” here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. “God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world.” Here is another passage where “the world” cannot mean “you, me, and everybody,” for believers will not be “judged” by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

“Kosmos” is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc. “Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness.” Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, “the world” cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

“Kosmos” is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of “the world” in each place. is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12;47; I Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of “the world” in each place.

Thus it will be seen that “kosmos” has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with “serving,” they have no time and no heart to “search” and “study” Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term “world” has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of “the world” in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to “give” His only begotten Son, and that was His great “love;” the second clause informs us for whom God “gave” His Son, and that is for, “whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;” while the last clause makes known why God “gave” His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth “should not perish but have everlasting life.” That “the world” in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from “the world of the ungodly” (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s “love.” “God commendeth His love toward US”—the saints, Rom. 5:8. “Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth”—every son, Heb. 12:6. “We love Him, because He first loved US”—believers, I John 4:19. The wicked God “pities” (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is “kind” (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures “with much long-suffering” (see Rom. 9:22). But “His own” God “loves”!!
 
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