My point is the Holy Spirit doesn’t just point us in the right direction, but to quicken us to life.
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Dominion vs determinism
- Thread starter Ben1445
- Start date
We believe in what Jesus stated, that they believed and loved him due to the truth that he loved them first
regenerated unto salvation
KenH
Well-Known Member
The Bible, from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21.
But I will pass along one passage in particular.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(emphasis mine)
Let's see what the consistent thread through this passage is:
God hath blessed,
In Christ,
He hath chosen,
Before the foundation of the world,
In love,
Predestinated us,
Unto adoption, (the child does do not do the adopting, the parent does)
By Jesus Christ,
To Himself,
Good pleasure of His will,
His grace,
He hath made us accepted,
His blood,
Forgiveness of sins,
His grace,
He hath abounded,
His will,
His good pleasure,
He hath purposed,
He might gather,
Predestinated according to the pleasure of Him,
His own will,
His glory,
Sealed with that Holy Spirit, (the sealer does the sealing, not the object being sealed)
Purchased possession,
His glory.
So salvation is all about God's grace, God's actions, God's choosing, God's predestinating, God's pleasure, God having abounded, God's purpose, God's gathering, God's will, God's glory.
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I will continue:
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." Ephesians 1:11
By these words the apostle brings before our eyes God's omnipotent power as carrying into effectual performance the counsel of his own will towards the objects of his distinguishing favour. An especial blessing is couched in this. Next to a believing view of the purposes of God's grace, and a sweet persuasion of our interest in them, nothing is more strengthening and encouraging than a realizing apprehension of the power of God to carry them into full execution.
Feeling, as we do, our own miserable helplessness, sinking under the pressure of our daily weakness, mourning over continual failures, and grieving on account of perpetual backslidings - encompassed by foes, and distressed by fears - how strengthening it is to our faith, thus tried to the utmost, to believe that he who has purposed has power to perform. This persuasion of the almighty power of God was the support and strength of Abraham's faith, which bore him up in the face of seeming impossibilities, and whereby he gave glory to God, (Romans 4:18-21).
When, then, as walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham, we can look up believingly to the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, as we behold sovereign grace in his heart, and infinite wisdom in his mind, so we see almighty strength in his arm. We become sweetly persuaded that all which his loving heart feels, his infinite wisdom directs and his omnipotent power will unfailingly execute.
- J.C. Philpot, Daily Portions, January 31
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
That is interesting. Who is given the task of compelling?I was just quoting Scripture. The Greek word used for 'compel' there is anagkazo. It is also found in Matt. 14:22; Mark 6:45; Acts 26:11; 28:19; 2 Cor. 12:11; Gal. 2:3, 14; 6:12. Check it out. I don't think anyone 'compelled' or 'constrained' by the Lord is going to refuse. But Jeremiah 31:3 might also be helpful.
It's called 'irresistible calling.'
KenH
Well-Known Member
It is God's process, from first to last, not man's.
Jonah 2:9 states that "Salvation is of the LORD."
"Of the LORD", not a joint venture, not partially of God up to a point, and then partially of man to finish the process, but 100% of the LORD from start to finish.
There are only two possibilities for how a person can be saved - free grace or free will. They cannot be mixed together without becoming some Frankenstein monster.
And the Bible is very, very, very clear - salvation is by free grace - of the LORD!!!
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
And if you don’t trust Him you won’t be one of His people.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Psalm 126:3
The LORD hath done great things for us;
Whereof we are glad.
Here is an excerpt from a sermon based on this verse by William Gadsby:
But immortal Godhead supported humanity under the weight of wrath; his holy soul endured it, and he died "the Just for the unjust to bring us to God ," and so to accomplish a salvation, rich and free, as extensive as the necessities of his people, as deep as their miseries can possibly be. Has he not done "great things" for us?
And all to give them a chance of being saved, - according to some people. I do not know that I hate any thing more in my soul than to hear that. It makes Jesus Christ so little, that he should do so much, and after all only get us a chance of being saved. Why, if a man is set up in business, you see how often it happens that he fails in it; and if man cannot manage the paltry things of time and sense without being insolvent, what will he do with eternal realities? And if you come a little closer, when God "made man upright" and he had no sinful nature, what did he do with his innocency? Why, he lost it all. And yet poor presumptuous man has the vanity to think you and I could manage the chance of being saved. What an insult it is to the Lord Jesus Christ, to fix the eternal honour of God upon chance, and that chance to be managed by a poor sinful creature who is tumbling into half a dozen holes every hour of his life. No, no. Thanks be to God for immortal realities and certainties. What is said concerning what Christ has done? He has "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself;" he has "finished transgression and made an end of sin;" he has "redeemed us from all iniquity;" he has "redeemed us from the curse of the law," from destruction and from the power of the devil; he has obtained eternal redemption for us;" he has "redeemed us to God." To the honour of the Eternal Trinity, it is said, not that the redeemed shall have a chance, but that the redeemed shall "come to Zion with songs, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." The Lord Jesus Christ has done this "great" work, and he is gone to heaven, shouting "Victory;" for "God is gone up with a shout; the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." He rose from the grave as a demonstrative proof that sin was destroyed, law satisfied, God honoured, his people eternally and everlastingly saved. And the immortal honours of God unite in their salvation; and therefore he ever lives at the right hand of the Father to make intercession.
Those born of God love Him, per 1 John 4:7. Those who love Him also trust Him.
KenH
Well-Known Member
All of the people for whom Christ died, shall trust Him. Every single one of them. For salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9), not of man.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
As if Jesus were gambling on the chance that we might be saved.
The mindset is faulty. It grieves me when I see people belittle the work of Christ this way.
When Christ fed the thousands, were there not baskets of extra taken up? Did Jesus not know how many people to prepare for? Is there no possibility in the mind of a determinist that the power Jesus Christ can exceed the limits of what will become history.
Jesus can save more than will allow Him to save.
Psalms 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God,
and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Instead people limit God in their own lives.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
This is a true statement but it is inclusive of all truth.
This is like saying all cats are feline.
It is not true that those who do not trust Him or love Him may not come to do so.
None allows God to save them. That right there exalts man, much like the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.
I don’t disagree those who don’t trust Him won’t come to trust Him. Our disagreement is how they come to trust Him, the means by which they come to trust Him. We, the reformed, say the new birth is what causes them to trust Him. The other side says they exercise free will and then come to trust Him after salvation.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Our point is man, in and of himself, will never submit to Him. If he has to wait until he exerts his will to submit to God, while in an unregenerate state, they will die lost. Romans 5:5-9 clearly states this as biblical truth.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[Romans 8:5-9]
The unregenerate are at enmity…have an ill-will towards…God, and being in the flesh, they cannot please Him, seeing they are devoid of faith. This is why they will never submit to Him while still unregenerate.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I disagree with your synopsis.
The new birth is salvation. You cannot have new life and not be saved. You can also not have salvation and not have new life. They are the same thing. Some people will disagree with me but regardless of how you separate them, they happen simultaneously. There is not a part of a second that you can have new life and not be saved.
Free will is only God given ability to be autonomous. Trusting Jesus is faith in Him. That is salvation. They are simultaneous. One does not come before or after the other.
I don’t believe in salvation to get salvation.
The new birth is salvation. You cannot have new life and not be saved. You can also not have salvation and not have new life. They are the same thing. Some people will disagree with me but regardless of how you separate them, they happen simultaneously. There is not a part of a second that you can have new life and not be saved.
You have essentially said the same thing twice except for free will.
Free will is only God given ability to be autonomous. Trusting Jesus is faith in Him. That is salvation. They are simultaneous. One does not come before or after the other.
Salvation is not the new birth, but is part and parcel of (new birth) salvation. The new birth is being born again, born from above. Salvation is being saved from their sins. They are not the same thing, but are mutually inclusive. No one is saved and not born again, neither is one born again and not saved.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
So God was misleading Cain when He told him that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had to be regenerated first and it seems that God has not done that for Him.
Of course Christ died for sinners. We would have to be to need a Saviour. If we were not sinners, we would not need a Saviour.
Don’t over complicate it.