Dominion vs determinism

[Silverhair]

Those in Christ are those for whom He died (Eph. 1:7 etc.).

By your words you show that when you hold to calvinism you are actually promoting universalism.

Heb 2:9 ...so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Christ died for all but not all are saved are they so obviously the calvinist view has problems.

 

[Brightfame52]

Heb 2:9 ...so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

These scriptures are restricted to the elect.

 

[Silverhair]

These scriptures are restricted to the elect.

BF you are just be your usual illogical self.

You are reading your hyper cal views into the text again.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds good, I look forward to hearing how you can make this logically consistent.

I will probably have to make a few posts, so that a TLDR doesnt take place.

We see the first prophecy in the Bible in Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Obviously there is a line of demarcation here. The Seed here is obviously referring to Christ, Galatians 3:16.

Now, I want to harken back to a place before the fall that will bring some things to light. We read, Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.[Genesis 1:11-12] You may wonder why I posited that in this post, so here’s why. Notice that which I bolded and underlined. A tree can only produce fruit that coincides with the seed in them. An apple can only produce apples because it contains only apple seeds. Same with peaches, pears, walnuts, &c.

Jesus said something that referred to His death and subsequent resurrection in John 12:24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Look at corn for instance. One kernel in the ground, once it germinates, brings forth a stock, silk, and ear(s) of corn. From one seed, all that takes place. Just like with Jesus, as we were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, the elect are the seed that was in Him. The Father gave the elect unto the Son to redeem from the rest of fallen humanity, and His death atoned for their sins, and His resurrection gave them their sanctification, Romans 4:25.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds good, I look forward to hearing how you can make this logically consistent.

Let’s move a little forward to Genesis 6. The world was evil and their thoughts were continually evil. Yet, Noah found favor…grace…in the eyes of the Lord. Grace is unmerited favor (we both agree here I’m sure) and for Noah to have found this in the eyes of the Lord, shows that Noah was not this great guy who stood out in His sight, but was no different than the rest. God chose Noah…and his family…not because of who Noah was or what he did, or would do later, but chose him based upon no one but Himself.

God would have been just to have wiped the whole human race out, but in His graciousness, chose Noah to spare the extinction of the human race. We see unconditional election here, that Noah did not have to meet certain criteria for God to choose him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds good, I look forward to hearing how you can make this logically consistent.

In Genesis 12, we find Abram, living in Canaan [Haran] doing great things for the Lord. Wait, no he wasn’t. In fact, he was an idol worshiper, as Joshua 24:2 alludes to. Here was this idol worshiper who God came to, took him from everything he knew, and made him a father of many nations…Abrahamic Covenant. There was nothing in Abram that made him stand out in the sight of God. In fact, he was in rank rebellion, worshiping idols.

Another clear indicator that unconditional election is found throughout the Bible. From him came Isaac, then Jacob (Israel), and then this leads up to them being blessed by one Pharaoh, and then later enslaved by another.

 

[Psalty]

No problem! Take your time

Just compare Exodus 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Exodus 19:5. “Now therefore if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people.”
1 Peter 2:9. 'But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, His own special people.....'

Can you not see the contrast? The people to whom Peter is writing are 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ' (1 Peter 1:2). They have been born anew through the resurrection of Christ (which presupposes His death on the cross) 'to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away.' (vs. 3-4).

I think this is the root of the issue. You are backdating things, so to speak.

For a refresher, the question is:
If God elected Israel, why aren’t they all saved?
You answered:
Because God conditionally elected Israel, so they weren’t all saved, but now God has changed how He does election and it is Unconditional.

I will point out that you are suggesting that God elected people in the new testament to salvation unconditionally, but conditionally elected people in the old testament. Now your idea of Sovereignty is very problematic. Unless you hold that they only THOUGHT they were conditionally elect because God told them they were, but secretly God has always predestined them to be unelect.

My argument is that God has not changed how He does election.
1. As He elected Israel, so He has now elected the Gentiles. This is Ephesians chapter 3 and 1. The Gentiles are Elect! Just like Israel! But now they are elect by being “In Christ”.
2. Elect means that Christians are chosen… by having faith in Christ (Eph 1:13) and being in Christ. They are chosen because Christ is chosen from the foundation of the world.
3. This also means that like Israel, they have to make sure that they are actually of Israel, as SG has quoted from Rom 9. Not all who are of Israel are Israel… Ie, not all of the Chosen are actually chosen in the end. This additionally makes sense of verses that make no sense in the Calvinist understanding:

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.— 2 Peter 1:8-11

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you⁠—unless indeed you fail the test?— 2 Corinthians 13:5

So back to your question, 1 Peter is the exact same way as Ephesians 1. God has always foreknown that He would save those who are in Christ through faith. He has predestined those “in Christ” to be saved. This does not mean He predestined those who are saved. This is why election is consistent between the old and new testament.

Election means you have been given a ticket to a predetermined destination. It does not mean you were predetermined to collect the ticket or walk onto the plane.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Because God conditionally elected Israel,

It's bedtime in England now and I have a church leaders' meeting early tomorrow morning so I won't be able to reply any time soon. But perhaps you will kindly tell me where I used the word 'conditionally' in my post? There is a difference between the Sinaitic covenant and the new covenant which is spelled out in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. We are no longer under the Sinaitic covenant.

 

[KenH]

You have to hope that the actions He has you perform are actually for your salvation and not just to glorify Himself when He casts you into hell.

If God did not choose me before the world, then I will most certainly go to Hell. But I have committed to Him my whole salvation. The LORD will do what He pleases with me. He is the Creator, I am but a mere creature.

 

[KenH]

So you have committed something. Oh! For shame!! You think that your so much holier than the rest of us that you can commit something to God !!!

I don't know why you reacted that way to my post, but whatever, man, just whatever.

 

[KenH]

But if they are still in their sins and their sins are not allowed to be with God, it is their own fault that they are in their own sins when their way has been paid.

Among we humans, there are only two classes, lost sinners and saved sinners. Even after God regenerates His elect, they still live out the remainder of their lives on this earth in a vile, sinful body. Their souls have have been made new, but their bodies will not be made new until the second coming of Christ and their bodies are resurrected, when this present heavens and earth is burned up and replaced with the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

 

[KenH]

That is an interesting point. I once walked out of a store with something someone gave to me in the store. I paid for it. When we left they wanted it back again. But I had the receipt. The accountability for it was with me, even though it had been paid for twice, the other kid didn’t keep receipts and he ended up without. The difference here is that God keeps the records. We may either accept His payment or remain in our trespasses and sins.

I have no idea how human foibles have anything to do with this discussion.

Except that I notice on this board that those opposed to the sovereignty of God to do what He wills with His creation have a false idea of God that He is really not much different than humans when it comes to failing - their conception of God is that He can fail, just like we humans, and not accomplish His will.

 

[KenH]

Now for me I can know I am saved as I used my God given free will to place my trust in the risen Christ Jesus. The bible is clear about why God saves or do you not believe what it says?

So you base your salvation on "I" - yourself - that you have performed some duty or duties - and this duty or duties is where your trust and faith is placed. William Rushton described well your kind.

' The notion that the death of Christ is conditionally sufficient for all mankind, that is if all mankind were to believe in it, leads the sinner at once to the performance of some duty which he imagines will give efficacy to the death of Christ and render it available to him. By this means he is led to draw comfort from his duties instead of the finished salvation of Christ. This error is the fruitful cause of the disquieting fears and legal bondage of many professors. They are constantly in fear lest they have not performed the requisite condition and, after much toiling, their uneasy spirits are as far from rest as ever, and again they utter the old complaint, "What lack I yet?" They have no notion that the alone work of Christ made manifest to the heart by the Holy Spirit, is sufficient to give joy unspeakable without the performance of some duty on their part, and therefore they are in constant perplexity lest this important duty should not have been performed. "I find," said Mr. Owen Stockton, "that though in my judgment and profession, I acknowledge Christ to be my righteousness and peace, yet I have secretly gone about to establish my own righteousness and have derived my comfort and peace from my own actings. For when I have been disquieted by the actings of sin, not God speaking peace through the blood of Christ, but the intermission of temptation and the cessation of those sins have restored me to my former peace. When I have been troubled at the evil frame of my heart, not the righteousness of Christ, but my feeling of a better temper hath been my consolation. I have prayed against, and resolved against sin, striven with sin, and avoided occasions of sin; all which a natural man may do. But how to fetch power from the death of Christ, how to believe in God for the subdueing of sin, and how to do it by the Spirit, have been mysteries to me.

In this state of bondage are many precious souls detained because they cannot see the absolute perfection of the work of Christ. They allow that Christ has done a great deal for sinners, but something they imagine must be done on our part to render his blood available; and that something not being able to satisfy divine justice and being too weak to purge their guilty conscience, they are disquieted. But when the soul is driven from every other refuge to trust in Christ alone then it finds rest. It no more asks, "What lack I yet?" knowing that the law is magnified, justice satisfied, and God the Father well pleased in his beloved Son: "for we who do believe have entered into rest." (Hebrews 4:3) "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned." (Isaiah 40:1-2) '

- excerpt form William Rushton's A Defense of Particular Redemption

 

[Silverhair]

If God did not choose me before the world, then I will most certainly go to Hell. But I have committed to Him my whole salvation. The LORD will do what He pleases with me. He is the Creator, I am but a mere creature.

So as I said before you really cannot know if you are saved or not. The religion you follow says you have to be chosen for salvation prior to creation but the bible does not support that view.

Do you really believe what you posted or are you just saying because you think you have to to support your calvinist philosophy?

All of us that have freely trusted in God have committed our whole salvation to Him but we have made the choice to do so and you have to hope that He has picked you.

 

[KenH]

Do you really believe what you posted

Absolutely. As I wrote, the LORD will do with me as He pleases, and I am quite content to have committed my whole salvation to Him, and not on something I have done; thus, regardless of how much you gnash your teeth at the gospel of Christ that I proclaim on this board and elsewhere, I have a good hope (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

 

[Silverhair]

So you base your salvation on "I" - yourself - that you have performed some duty or duties - and this duty or duties is where your trust and faith is placed. William Rushton described well your kind.

' The notion that the death of Christ is conditionally sufficient for all mankind, that is if all mankind were to believe in it, leads the sinner at once to the performance of some duty which he imagines will give efficacy to the death of Christ and render it available to him. By this means he is led to draw comfort from his duties instead of the finished salvation of Christ. This error is the fruitful cause of the disquieting fears and legal bondage of many professors. They are constantly in fear lest they have not performed the requisite condition and, after much toiling, their uneasy spirits are as far from rest as ever, and again they utter the old complaint, "What lack I yet?" They have no notion that the alone work of Christ made manifest to the heart by the Holy Spirit, is sufficient to give joy unspeakable without the performance of some duty on their part, and therefore they are in constant perplexity lest this important duty should not have been performed. "I find," said Mr. Owen Stockton, "that though in my judgment and profession, I acknowledge Christ to be my righteousness and peace, yet I have secretly gone about to establish my own righteousness and have derived my comfort and peace from my own actings. For when I have been disquieted by the actings of sin, not God speaking peace through the blood of Christ, but the intermission of temptation and the cessation of those sins have restored me to my former peace. When I have been troubled at the evil frame of my heart, not the righteousness of Christ, but my feeling of a better temper hath been my consolation. I have prayed against, and resolved against sin, striven with sin, and avoided occasions of sin; all which a natural man may do. But how to fetch power from the death of Christ, how to believe in God for the subdueing of sin, and how to do it by the Spirit, have been mysteries to me.

In this state of bondage are many precious souls detained because they cannot see the absolute perfection of the work of Christ. They allow that Christ has done a great deal for sinners, but something they imagine must be done on our part to render his blood available; and that something not being able to satisfy divine justice and being too weak to purge their guilty conscience, they are disquieted. But when the soul is driven from every other refuge to trust in Christ alone then it finds rest. It no more asks, "What lack I yet?" knowing that the law is magnified, justice satisfied, and God the Father well pleased in his beloved Son: "for we who do believe have entered into rest." (Hebrews 4:3) "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned." (Isaiah 40:1-2) '

- excerpt form William Rushton's A Defense of Particular Redemption

Did you miss that I said I trusted in Him to save me. That is biblical.

Read Rom 1:16 ...I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

I had to believe, God did not do it for me.

The fact you do not understand biblical salvation indicates to me that you either have ignored much of the bible or you just do not really trust the word of God in regard to ones salvation.

The bible is very clear on it as Paul shows here

Act 16:30 .... "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 ... "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..."

How much clearer could God have made it?

 

[KenH]

I had to believe, God did not do it for me.

God did not believe for me, but I only believe and I only repent because God gave the gifts of faith in Christ's finished works and repentance of dead works to me; I didn't somehow well it up from within me by my own non-existent "free will" strength.

 

[Psalty]

It's bedtime in England now and I have a church leaders' meeting early tomorrow morning so I won't be able to reply any time soon. But perhaps you will kindly tell me where I used the word 'conditionally' in my post? There is a difference between the Sinaitic covenant and the new covenant which is spelled out in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. We are no longer under the Sinaitic covenant.

I understand. I too will be preparing for Good Friday.

For reference this is what I was referring to where you described conditional and unconditional.

I hope that is helpful to you. It is worthwhile comparing Exodus 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10. The first is conditional; the second is unconditional.

 

[Psalty]

I will probably have to make a few posts, so that a TLDR doesnt take place.

We see the first prophecy in the Bible in Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Obviously there is a line of demarcation here. The Seed here is obviously referring to Christ, Galatians 3:16.

Now, I want to harken back to a place before the fall that will bring some things to light. We read, Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.[Genesis 1:11-12] You may wonder why I posited that in this post, so here’s why. Notice that which I bolded and underlined. A tree can only produce fruit that coincides with the seed in them. An apple can only produce apples because it contains only apple seeds. Same with peaches, pears, walnuts, &c.

Jesus said something that referred to His death and subsequent resurrection in John 12:24, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Look at corn for instance. One kernel in the ground, once it germinates, brings forth a stock, silk, and ear(s) of corn. From one seed, all that takes place. Just like with Jesus, as we were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world, the elect are the seed that was in Him.

I agree with this. We are chosen in Christ. God chose christ before the foundation of the world, bit we are only chosen by God because we are in Christ. He didnt chose us by our lonesomes, He chose Christ, and secondarily us in Christ.

Example. Christ is a Jar that God chose. Because we are in that jar, we are chosen because we are in the jar that God chose.

The Father gave the elect unto the Son to redeem from the rest of fallen humanity, and His death atoned for their sins, and His resurrection gave them their sanctification, Romans 4:25.

Nothing particularly Calvinistic about this, I could agree with this, but again, I think your definition of elect is different than mine.

 

[Psalty]

Let’s move a little forward to Genesis 6.

First, instead of reading in instant total depravity to understand the nature of sin, we should look at the first occurrence of sin after the fall. This gives us the nature of man and sin, as well as Gods expectation of how we can deal with sin. Genesis 4 is Gods view of sin:

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
— Genesis 4:6-7

He expects Cain to resist. Unless you think God is not being honest.

The world was evil and their thoughts were continually evil.

It does not say from birth, or from reprobation before time began. It became this way, and specifically in context after angelic corruption.

Yet, Noah found favor…grace…in the eyes of the Lord. Grace is unmerited favor (we both agree here I’m sure) and for Noah to have found this in the eyes of the Lord, shows that Noah was not this great guy who stood out in His sight, but was no different than the rest. God chose Noah…and his family…not because of who Noah was or what he did, or would do later, but chose him based upon no one but Himself.

Disagree again based on the text. Noah finds favor because he walked in integrity, if you look at the hebrew. His life is typified by walking with God, what Adam did prior to the fall. And what Enoch does with God. This is the Psalm 1 typification of a man of faith living in relationship with God.

But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
— Genesis 6:8-9

God would have been just to have wiped the whole human race out, but in His graciousness, chose Noah to spare the extinction of the human race. We see unconditional election here, that Noah did not have to meet certain criteria for God to choose him.

Disagree because of scripture:

“Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord GOD.
— Ezekiel 14:13-14