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Calvinism needs to add words to scripture

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I shrug off the interpretation that Jesus meant ”everyone without exception” would be drawn to him once Jesus was crucified because it is patently false. The Aztec living in the Americas before the arrival of Christopher Columbus who had no opportunity to hear the gospel and had never heard of Jesus were not drawn to him when they cut out the heart of their human sacrifices to their winged snake god. Even scripture implicitly states as much …

Romans 10:14 [NKJV]
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

How indeed? A very good question.
They shall not … hear, believe, call.


Rom. 2:12-16
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I shrug off the interpretation that Jesus meant ”everyone without exception” would be drawn to him once Jesus was crucified because it is patently false. The Aztec living in the Americas before the arrival of Christopher Columbus who had no opportunity to hear the gospel and had never heard of Jesus were not drawn to him when they cut out the heart of their human sacrifices to their winged snake god. Even scripture implicitly states as much …

Romans 10:14 [NKJV]
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

How indeed? A very good question.
They shall not … hear, believe, call.
So your best explanation of why God chooses to send people to hell is that you think that the church in whatever period of time was not doing their job based on your opinion of surviving history?

I’m glad my salvation doesn’t depend on what people on the opposite side of the world think 500 years from now.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
@Martin Marprelate. I thought that was excellent and thanks for putting that up. I would ask, not as a challenge, but since this thread started out with what I was hoping would be a conciliatory and uniting tone, that you guys who don't like Calvinism would take the time to view that video above. What I am specifically interested in would be if you guys would look at the 1:20:00 mark and then the next 10 minutes where he offers the gospel and gives what I consider an invitation to come to Christ. For just one moment, theology aside, would anyone have any objections to that segment? I sincerely would like to know what your opinion would be on that.
He two separate times defended his responsibility to evangelize, knowing that it makes no sense for him to do it. He is aware of the conundrum that he has created for himself.
I find it ironic that he says that the swimmer doesn’t do anything to save himself and then asks the congregation to respond.
Any lifeguard will tell you that the hardest person to save is the one who doesn’t want to be saved. The person who knowingly or out of just panic, refuses the help of the lifeguard. To say that the lifeguard either saves or doesn’t regardless of the drowning swimmer is like saying that the lifeguard just doesn’t go to some people.
The people who drown are the ones who do not trust the lifeguard. I have heard stories about lifeguards who all but drown the swimmers in order to reduce their resistance to help. Not resisting as if they could save themselves, but resisting that is the result of not trusting the lifeguard. There are also swimmers who drown their lifeguard with them because they will not trust their lifeguard. I don’t say that there is any sinner who can bring damnation to the Saviour. My point is that it is not “does the lifeguard make you swim back?” It is will you listen to and obey and trust the lifeguard. The choice is made at salvation. It is not a process like get regenerated and slowly come to salvation, or quickly for that matter.
He is painfully aware of the conflict between his message and his invitation. He justifies it be talking about it and more or less saying that it is the moral high ground.

I hear that God has no regrets and has absolute satisfaction in what He sees. (That is what the preacher said.) Applied, God sees the drowning swimmer and is satisfied to watch them drown without offering to save them, that because Jesus never fails, He must never have tried to save some people.

I heard him say you have to empty your hands to come to Christ. But if you were honest, you would say that was preparing to come, even though that is only over complicating the issue.

And for all the people who are offended by my comments. I would remind you that this is a discussion forum. I have never said that you don’t evangelize. If God can use Paul, a murderer of Christians, I’ve no doubt He would stoop only so low as to use a Calvinist. ;)

I do wish that we could recognize that what we are discussing is in some respects not necessary to understand for salvation. Whether or not you believe Christ answered for all sin has not so much bearing on whether or not you believe that Christ answered for your sins.
And with that in mind, I wish we could stop bringing people to Calvinism and start bringing them to Christ.
But there is no conflict when you understand that Jesus paid for all sin yet some sinners remain in unbelief.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
He two separate times defended his responsibility to evangelize, knowing that it makes no sense for him to do it. He is aware of the conundrum that he has created for himself.
In my opinion one of the most unfortunate things is that all attempts at systematic theology will lead into the weeds if you demand that theology be a total explanation. I maintain that, as a Calvinist preacher, which he is, he has every right to believe he has a responsibility to evangelize, and yet believe that God, from God's point of view, is achieving his own plan and purpose at the same time. You have no more right to claim he shouldn't do that than I have to claim that no free willer can accept any biblical prophesy while claiming that the future actors are free to alter their choices at any time. The fact is, in both cases, those who believe their respective theologies have answers which either satisfy them or at least they acknowledge that they are mysteries, or inexplicable concepts for our finite minds.

I can say that the way the Pastor Thomas was preaching would be completely familiar to me and even most non-Calvinists I know would not notice any problem with it. Calvinism has a wide range of beliefs. One of them is that some Calvinists believe that those who Christ's blood atoned for are already actually saved, and that salvation involved just a realization that you are elect. Others don't. R.C. Sproul was asked what an elect person is before they actually come to Christ? Answer: Lost! You have no right to state what others have to believe regarding the specifics of their theology, especially if it is vast and diverse in scope. And neither do I. When Jonathan Edwards said in a sermon that "Christ has died, all things are ready for you, all that is needed is your consent", was he ignorant of his theology? Or stupid? Or maybe we should instead, when hearing that look further into the theology because heaven forbid, it may be that it is our own understanding that is deficient, and maybe there is an opportunity to learn something.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
In my opinion one of the most unfortunate things is that all attempts at systematic theology will lead into the weeds if you demand that theology be a total explanation. I maintain that, as a Calvinist preacher, which he is, he has every right to believe he has a responsibility to evangelize, and yet believe that God, from God's point of view, is achieving his own plan and purpose at the same time. You have no more right to claim he shouldn't do that than I have to claim that no free willer can accept any biblical prophesy while claiming that the future actors are free to alter their choices at any time. The fact is, in both cases, those who believe their respective theologies have answers which either satisfy them or at least they acknowledge that they are mysteries, or inexplicable concepts for our finite minds.

I can say that the way the Pastor Thomas was preaching would be completely familiar to me and even most non-Calvinists I know would not notice any problem with it. Calvinism has a wide range of beliefs. One of them is that some Calvinists believe that those who Christ's blood atoned for are already actually saved, and that salvation involved just a realization that you are elect. Others don't. R.C. Sproul was asked what an elect person is before they actually come to Christ? Answer: Lost! You have no right to state what others have to believe regarding the specifics of their theology, especially if it is vast and diverse in scope. And neither do I. When Jonathan Edwards said in a sermon that "Christ has died, all things are ready for you, all that is needed is your consent", was he ignorant of his theology? Or stupid? Or maybe we should instead, when hearing that look further into the theology because heaven forbid, it may be that it is our own understanding that is deficient, and maybe there is an opportunity to learn something.
I didn’t say that he should not evangelize. I said even he recognizes the conflict of his own beliefs.
And I said, and meant that I believe God uses Calvinists evangelistically.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I have several good friends who are Calvinist preachers. We get along just fine. But we are not sitting at a forum discussing the subject.
Just remember where we are and don’t be surprised when people disagree. That is what makes it a forum. If everyone agreed there would be nothing to discuss.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Calvinism doesn’t understand election.
Nobody is elected to forgiveness of sins.
Election has to do with the benefits of what comes after salvation. The people who are elected before anything are the people who are saved. Anyone may be saved. Everyone may be saved. There is no sin that has not already received an answer in the blood of Christ.
All will not be saved. But God is rich in mercy. He may not be considered rich were He to run out of mercy. God’s mercy is not limited by “while supplies last.” It is limited by the accepted time.
What am I supposed to say to this? There is no Scripture, no attempt to answer anything that I have posted. No understanding of Calvinism. I really don't think you have a clue what Calvinism actually is
'All will not be saved. But God is rich in mercy.' Amen! The miracle is that one single person is saved. 'As it is written, "There is none righteous, no not one."' But unfortunately your idea of God means that He does not love anyone enough to save him.

One question I have for you. A yes or no answer will do nicely. Do you think that Calvin himself or Calvinists generally believe that people believing in Christ will be turned away because they are not elect?
 

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Calvinism is a truly horrible distortion of God’s Word.

A Calvinist cannot tell an unsaved person, “Christ died for your sins.”

Calvinists believe Christ died only for the elect and no one can know who the elect are.

A Calvinist cannot agree with John 3:16, because a Calvinist believes God did not love the world, but only the elect within it.

Here is how a Calvinist mangles John 3:16 (Calvinist additions in red.)

For God so loved the elect and no one else in the world, that he gave to the elect only his only begotten Son, that whosoever (who are the elect predestined ones) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Calvinism is a truly horrible distortion of God’s Word.

A Calvinist cannot tell an unsaved person, “Christ died for your sins.”

Calvinists believe Christ died only for the elect and no one can know who the elect are.

A Calvinist cannot agree with John 3:16, because a Calvinist believes God did not love the world, but only the elect within it.

Here is how a Calvinist mangles John 3:16 (Calvinist additions in red.)

For God so loved the elect and no one else in the world, that he gave to the elect only his only begotten Son, that whosoever (who are the elect predestined ones) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There really is no point in replying to you, though it would be easy to respond in just the same folish, ignorant and insulting fashion. It is clear that you and @Ben1445 have no intention of having an intelligent and courteous discussion on the matter. I'm out of here.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
So your best explanation of why God chooses to send people to hell is …
People going to hell has nothing to do with God’s choice and everything to do with man’s choice.
It is people going to heaven that is the gift resulting from God’s choice.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Calvinism is a truly horrible distortion of God’s Word.

A Calvinist cannot tell an unsaved person, “Christ died for your sins.”

Calvinists believe Christ died only for the elect and no one can know who the elect are.

A Calvinist cannot agree with John 3:16, because a Calvinist believes God did not love the world, but only the elect within it.

Here is how a Calvinist mangles John 3:16 (Calvinist additions in red.)

For God so loved the elect and no one else in the world, that he gave to the elect only his only begotten Son, that whosoever (who are the elect predestined ones) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Those that deny the Doctrines of Grace are claiming that God saves NOBODY; God merely presents EVERYONE a with the tools to save themselves.

So which is the greater distortion of God’s word?

Romans 8:29-30 [NKJV]
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV]
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Ephesians 2:8-9 [NKJV]
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
1 John 2:2
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of those for whom Jesus died in the whole world.
No answers to my simple questions...
Are the definitions you are using for the words "our" and "the Whole World" just some things off the top of your head
that you are assuming, or can they be supported by the Word of God?

What definitions do you give to those words?
"our" = ____________

"the Whole World" = _______________
The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men.
Yes, He does. The Bible as Inspired by The Holy Spirit Means just what it says, when He says, "all men".

The question then is "What does it say?", by also discerning what it can't possibly be saying.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Of course those means that some of all people and not literally all people.
Here is your word "All" used in the Bible in exactly the manner in which it is intended elsewhere, with regard to Eternal Salvation, as we see "All" given the qualifier, "All that the Father Giveth Me".

Who else is it at all plausible that Jesus would Save, than "All" of them that the Father Gave Jesus?

And absolutely not "All" men without exception, or everyone would be Saved.

Even those like Cain, who has been in Hell over 6,000 years(?)
It means all people groups that the Father gives will come.
"All" means "All" of the individual individuals that God Gave to Jesus to Pay their sin debt and Save their souls.
It couldn’t really mean that God loves all people who He draws or anyone could be saved.
It doesn't say anything about God Drawing anyone except those He Gave to Jesus Christ to Accomplish Salvation for them.
Is Jesus Christ Someone that you allow to tell us who He died for?

John 10:15 "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep."
I quote from Gill primarily based on his approach being sober, Spiritually, (and exhausting most objections, one at a time) compared to the over estimations of their own capabilities like those of Spurgeon who fancies his abilities to enable him to say;
The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men.
as if the Divine Holy Spirit is going to Inspire the blasphemous, anti-Christ, heretical, God-hating, Spiritual Adultery of suggesting that Jesus died for "all men" WITHOUT EXCEPTION, when at the least, that would mean that EVERYONE WOULD BE SAVED AND GO TO HEAVEN, or worse, that GOD IS A FAILURE FOR SENDING JESUS TO DIE BECAUSE SOME SINNERS OUT OF "ALL MEN" JESUS SUPPOSEDLY DIED FOR WHERE NOT SAVED AND REMAINED LOST AND WENT TO HELL.

That's not the One and Only, True and Living God of the Bible.

It takes a small man and half-baked Christian wanna-be to 'brag that their God and assumed Savior weren't able to accomplish what they 'Willed', even with the Help of the All-Powerful God the Holy Spirit.'

That is inexcusable, irresponsible ignorance, for someone to ever think, or speak, in public or private.
God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —Charles Spurgeon, "Salvation By Knowing the Truth"
That's Satan Worship, to claim "all men" there equates to "every man and women ever born".

But what was also horrifying to Spurgeon and many other Calvinists is the idea that people would interpret the truth of this as meaning that the atonement was limited so that it was possible for a scenario where a person could come to Christ only to be told that they had not been included in the atonement.
No need to worry your pretty little face about any man-made philosophy conjured up by the flesh, since no man will come unto Jesus, just like Jesus said when He told them, "you will not come unto Me that you might have Life."

It is as utterly impossible for a scenario where a person could come to Christ who the Father didn't first Irresistibly Draw
and the only thing any lost soul thinking they are playing church is going to be told is that they are to Depart from Him, as we see in Matthew 7:21;
"Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven;
but he that doeth the Will of My Father which is in Heaven.

22
; "Many will say to Me in that Day, Lord, Lord, have we not Prophesied in thy Name?
and in thy Name have cast out devils? and in thy Name done many wonderful works?

2
3; "And then Will I Profess unto them, I never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity"
AND THEY had not been included in the Atonement, BECAUSE THEY NEVER BOWED TO THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND WERE SIMPLY RELIGIOUSLY LOST, LIKE MILLIONS OF OTHERS WHO HAVE BELIEVED THE DEMONIC LIES OF THEIR 'PREISTS' AND 'PASTORS' AND FALSE 'BIBLE TEACHERS'.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Thus you have an open invitation and offer of the gospel as an essential part of most Calvinist preaching. And it is genuine.
THERE IS NO "INVATATION" TO LOST SINNERS "who are laboring in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with Iniquity, and insensible of their Offensive sinful acts by birth, and choice, practice, and habits: because these are not weary of sin, nor burdened with their sins against God; nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls;

"Those who come to Christ aright, Come as sinners, to a Full, Suitable, Able, and Willing Savior; and venture their souls upon Him, and Trust in Him for Righteousness, Life, and Salvation, WHEN THEIR LOST, BLIND, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS ARE MADE ALIVE BY THE QUICKENING POWER OF GOD, IN THE DAY OF HIS ALL MIGHTY POWER, which they are encouraged to do, by this kind Invitation; which shows His Willingness to Save, and His Readiness to Give Relief to Distressed minds. The persons invited, are not "all" the individuals of mankind, but with a RESTRICTION:

"all ye that labor, and are heavy laden"; AND ARE THOSE SOULS WHO HAVE BEEN GRANTED REPENTENCE "who groan, being burdened with the guilt of sin upon their consciences, and are pressed down with the unsupportable yoke of the law", WHICH HAS DRIVEN THEM LIKE A SCHOOLTEACHER TO JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR ACCORDING TO WHEN THE FATHER DRAWS THEM THROUGH HIS WORD "and the load of human traditions; and have been laboring till they are weary, in order to obtain Peace of conscience, and Rest for their souls, by the observance of these things, but in vain.

ONLY these lost souls who have been convicted of their sin being against The Trice Holy Godhead are encouraged to Come to Him, lay down their burdens at His feet, look to, and lay hold by Faith on His Person, Blood, Righteousness, and Sacrifice; ONCE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS THEIR SINS, PERSONALLY, THAT NAILED THEIR SAVIOR TO THE CROSS AND THAT WHEN HE WAS ON THE CROSS THEY WERE ON HIS MIND, when they should enjoy that True Spiritual Consolation OF SALVATION THROUGH GRACE BY FAITH, WHICH ARE ALL THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT AND GIFT OF GOD,

which could never be attained to by the works of the law, OR BY MENTALLY BELIEVING OR CONSENTING CARNALLY IN THEIR FLESH ASENTING TO AN 'OFFER' OR 'INVATATION' ONLY AS AN EXPERIMENTAL OPPERATION OF GODLESS RELIGION, WITHOUT THE SAVING AID AND NEW BIRTH OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, IN RESPONCE TO THE SAVING MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL THAT JESUS DIED, WAS BURIED, AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD TO SAVE THE SOULS OF ALL THOSE WHO THE FATHER GAVE THE SON.

God AND ALL FAITHFUL GOSPEL WITNESSES AND GOSPEL PREACHERS WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL AND now Command all men, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, to Repent and believe the Gospel, which is the Power of God unto Salvation.

AND WHILE GOD IS NOT OBLIGATED TO SAVE ANY SOUL WHOM HE HAS NOT CHOSEN FROM ETERNITY PAST AND YET "ALL MEN" ARE RESPONSIBLE TO GOD AND MUST GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR SINS, PERSONALLY, ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, APART FROM THE SAVING WORK OF THE SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST.


If I John teaches us anything, it is that none of us has any right or authority from God or the Bible to just pull up certain words, such as "the World", out of a verse and think we can assign a meaning to it, based solely on our first impulse in the flesh and assume we have a Spiritual Discernment of everything God has Revealed that He wants us to understand by whenever He employs the words "the World", as we see proven in I John 2:15 where "the World" is used 3 times with a distinctively different way than at the beginning of that same Chapter in I John 2:4.

"Love not the World, neither the things that are in the World.

If any man love the World, the love of the Father is not in him."

So, in I John 2:4, what is it God actually wants us to glean to be the meaning of "the World" there and what would cause anyone to ever justifiably think that their first knee-jerk reaction to reading it is going to AUTOMATICALLY BE THE DIVINE INSPIRED MIND OF CHRIST, AND GOD, AS REVEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, WITHOUT COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL THINGS, FOR ONE SECOND?

WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR THERE, AGAIN?

ARE YOU SUUUUUUURRRRRE? :........Be Cautious, brother........

"God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
”The famous, and well known text, in this controversy,
is 1 John 2:2 where Christ is said to be, "the Propitiation for the sins of the Whole World".

“Now let it be observed, that these phrases, "all the World", and "the Whole World", are often in scripture to be taken in a limited sense; as in Luke 2:1 "that all the World should be taxed"; it can mean no more than that part of the World the Roman Empire, which was under the dominion of Caesar Augustus:

“and in Romans 1:8 it can only design the Christians throughout the World, not the Heathens;

“and when the Gospel is said to be "in all the World, and bring forth fruit", Colossians 1:6 it can only intend true believers in Christ, in all places, in whom only it brings forth fruit;

“and when it is said, "all the World wondered after the beast", Revelation 13:3 at that same time, there were saints he made war with, because they would not worship him:

“and so in other places; and in this epistle of John, the phrase is used in a restrained sense, 1 John 5:19 where those that belong to God, are distinguished from "the Whole World", described by lying in wickedness, which believers do not. And as John was a Jew, he spake in the language of the Jews, who frequently, in their writings, use the phrase “amle ylwk” "the Whole World", in a limited sense:

“sometimes "the Whole World" only signifies a large number of people

{1}; sometimes a majority of their Jewish doctors

{2}; sometimes a congregation

{3}; or a whole synagogue

{4}; and sometimes very few

{5}: and so here in the text under consideration, it cannot be understood of “all men”;

Con't;​
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
The Whole World” can only be understood to be expressing
only of those for whom Christ is an Advocate, as we see in 1 John 5:1,

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is Born of God:

and every one that Loveth Him that Begat

Loveth H
im also that is Begotten of Him.”

“The Advocacy of these souls is founded on Jesus Propitiatory Sacrifice;

“now Christ is not an Advocate, or does not make Intercession for “all men”;

“because He Himself says, "I pray not for the world": and Christ can be a Propitiation for no more than He is an Advocate; if He was a Propitiation “for all”, He would surely be an Advocate “for all”; and plead on their behalf His Propitiatory Sacrifice; but Christ was "Set Forth", or Preordained, to be "a Propitiation", not for “all men”;

“but for such only, who, "through Faith in His Blood", receive the Benefit of it, and rejoice in it, Romans 3:25, 5:11 moreover, in this epistle, the persons for whom Christ is a Propitiation, are represented as a peculiar people, and the Objects of God's Special Love, 1 John 4:10,

“but what may be observed, and will lead more clearly into the sense of the passage before us, is, that the Apostle John was a Jew, and wrote to Jews; and in the text speaks of them, and of the Gentiles, as to be distinguished; and therefore says of Christ, "He is" the Propitiation "for our sins; and not for ours only", not only for the sins of us Jews only; "but for the sins of the Whole World", i.e., of the Gentiles also, of all the Elect of God throughout the Gentile World:

“in which a notion of the Jews is opposed, that the Gentiles would receive no benefit by the Messiah, as has been observed, on John 3:16 and here the Apostle takes up the sentiment of his Lord and Master, in Whose Bosom he lay, and expresses it. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings, than to call the Gentiles “the World”, “the Whole World”, and the Nations of the World”; as they are by the apostle Paul, in distinction from the Jews, Romans 11:12,15, where the World and the Gentiles are equated as being the same.

THE WORLD = THE GENTILES, BIBLICALLY, IN MANY PLACES.


 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Unfortunately, you have added words to the Scripture. The words 'for the sins of' are not found in any ancient manuscript. Secondly, you are making the assumption that 'the whole world' means 'all the people in the whole world,' which is adding to Scripture again; and thirdly, If the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for all the people in the world, the God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world and therefore all the people in the world are saved. Is that what you believe?

TOO SHORT.
"our" = ____________

"the Whole World" = _______________
DIDN'T ANSWER.
INFORMATION OVERLOAD.
 
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