Psalty
Well-Known Member
So sorry, but I asked about what Matthew 10 meant when it said that the Son of Man would come, not Luke 21… not sure how Luke 21 relates to the question.
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Preterism and Partial Preterism
- Thread starter Psalty
- Start date
Oh please, what Jesus spoke to the apostles in Matthew 10:23 began to be fulfilled literally immediately after His ascension, do not you still understand?
The persecutions against the Apostles, of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 10:23, they began immediately after his ascension as is written in the book of Acts chapter 4, take a look, and Acts 5:17-42, and 6:8-15, and chapter 7 as a whole, and 8:1-16, and 9:1-31, understand?
And after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the persecutions continued as is written in Acts 12:1-19, and 14:1-6, and 17:4-14, and especially when Paul stood before the Sanhedrin, and before the Tribunal of Felix, and Festus, and Agrippa, as is written in Acts chapters 22 to 26, and then he was sent to be judged by Caesar in Rome. According to tradition, Paul died executed in Rome, around the years 64-67 AD, under the rule of Emperor Nero. -> In 70 AD, the nation of Israel was completely destroyed, and the Temple, called the den of thieves, was also destroyed.
And John the Apostle was exiled to the island of Patmos. John is considered to have been exiled to Patmos during a time of persecution under the Roman rule of Domitian in the late 1st century. And the nation of Israel no longer existed; they were all scattered throughout the ancient world, and remained scattered for centuries until 1948. The Diaspora lasted 1878 years, yes, 1878 years of severe curses and punishments according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68.
Didn't you understand that it was impossible to evangelize the cities of Israel at that time because of the terrible and demonic persecutions?Then the nation of Israel was annihilated and chastised in 70 AD, and the punishment lasted until 1948, for its rebellion against GOD.
That being said, and as JESUS also said in Matthew 10:23, the Apostles "shall not have gone over the cities of Israel->(and Israel was not be evangelized), till the Son of man be come". Only and only from now on Israel will be evangelized before JESUS come as was prophesied by Daniel:->Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Matthew 15-25, and 1Thessalonians 4:16, and Revelation 7:1-10, and chapter 14:1-20.
Read de Holy Scriptures, the Bible.->John 5:39-40:->JESUS said:->
39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life? And 7:37-38:->
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, JESUS stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Alleluia!
Look, don't you think that the four books of the Gospel of Jesus speak of the same things among themselves, or don't they share and have the same language? Compare the similarity between them, as follows:
Matthew 10:17-23
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Luke 21:12-24- JESUS said, as follow:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:->(Diaspora), and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ->(in the END of the times, sure).
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
37818
Well-Known Member
@kyredneck
Zero generation has seen Matthew 24:29, . . . the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, . . . . As the same event. Has not yet happened.
Zero generation has seen Matthew 24:29, . . . the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, . . . . As the same event. Has not yet happened.
That’s not to be taken literally. That’s apocalyptic language that’s used all throughout the OT when a nation was under God’s judgment. Compare Isaiah 34:4 with Revelation 6:14. The sky did not literally roll up like a scroll in Isaiah 34:4, neither did it in Revelation 6:14.
Psalty
Well-Known Member
So even though Jesus is talking to the disciples and He says they won’t finish going through Israel, but will be persecuted by kings and governors, you think that Matthew 10 is actually talking about the final tribulation period? Am I understanding you correctly?
You seem to indicate that Matthew 10 refers to the book of Acts, which I could see, but then that does not connect with you quoting Luke 21 about either Tribulation Timing. Luke 21 seems to clearly indicate talking about AD 70 with Jerusalem surrounded by the Armies of Rome:
So the question remains, how do you take Matthew 10?
Again, according to you quoting Acts, it would seem that the Disciples went through the cities of Israel, so in what sense did the Son of Man come in the book of Acts?
37818
Well-Known Member
If it is to be taken literally. It is yet to occur. At Christ's second appearing.
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And yet verse 34 is on line 1.
Literal stars from other literal galaxies are literally going to fall on planet earth. Right.
That’s literally dumb.
37818
Well-Known Member
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Being the generation that sees . . . the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, . . . .
Not even remotely close to the context. There is not one citation by Christ in the four gospels when He said "this generation" that that means another generation millennia later. Jesus warning first century believers about things that will happen millennia later is eisegesis, not exegesis.
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Right. The heavens created by GOD (GOD is Spirit (John 4:24) have nothing to do with the physical space of the Universe, but rather with SPIRITUAL ENVIRONMENTS planted->(Isaiah 51:16, take a look), and established by GOD here on Earth through His Word->(for example, the Old and New Testaments), where those who were chosen and saved from the power of the darkness are placed by GOD->(Ephesians 1:3-10 and so on-take a look), for they were snatched from the power of the Devil's world. ->Ephesians 1:3-10 and so on-> I highlight verse 3:-> Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord JESUS Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in HEAVENLY PLACES places in Christ. ->
The first heaven, the HEAVENLY PLACE planted by Moses and the prophets(Isaiah 51:16) was the Old Testament->(Matthew 11:9-14);
The 2nd heaven, the HEAVENLY PLACE, was planted(Isaiah 51:16)and established by JESUS and the 12 Apostles and disciples of JESUS, through the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom, it is the New Testament. And now, from now on?
Now will be established the 3rd heaven, actually it is the next HEAVENLY PLACE to be planted(Isaiah 51:16) and established under the sound of the seventh Trumpet->Revelation 11:15-18 combined with 1Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55, and Philippians 3:20-21 and
1Tessalonians 4:16. -> There will be WAR from now on-> Revelation 12:7-17 and Revelation 16:13-15, and then-> the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds->(Example:->Exodus 19:14-17), to meet the Lord in the air(in the third heaven->2Corinthians 12:2-4, take a look ): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2Peter 3:7 and 11-12:-> 7 - But the heavens-> (the current heavenly environments of the 1st and 2nd heavens->the OT and NT) and the earth->( the current rebel Israel), which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment->(the 7th and last Day, or 7th and last millennium) and perdition of ungodly men.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD, wherein the heavens->(first and second heavens, the 3rd heaven still will be planted(Isaiah 51:16)/ established on Earth) being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.
The Word is GOD-John 1:1. GOD Himself, Self-executing, Self-Executable.
Let us all be prepared or else get ready - Matthew 25:6-10
GET READY => The glory which shall be revealed-->IN US -> sons of GOD <=
====================The glory which shall be revealed-->in us================== Romans 8:18-21: 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the...
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The point is that the Son of Man did not come in AD 70, certainly not in the way indicated in Acts 1:11.
Look at a map of the world and find Israel. It's tiny, and was in the 1st Century. The word translated 'cities' in Matt. 10:23 in polis. It denotes a walled city, as opposed to kome, the word for a town or village without a wall. There was not a very large number of cities in Israel. The apostles could easily have visited them all in a year or two. The idea of it taking the 40 years until AD 70 to do it is a real stretch.
So it could well be that the Lord Jesus was saying that the apostles would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He would have risen from the dead and given them new instructions: to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:16).
Alternatively, our Lord might have been speaking of all those cities in the world where Christians would be found (c.f. John 1:47; Romans 2:28-29; Gal. 3:7). This would be in line with Matt. 24:14, and be a task that is still not finished today.
Right, "the Son of Man (JESUS), did not come in AD 70"(highlight's mine). By the way, this theory or interpretation, saying JESUS came in AD 70, it is a DEMONIC interpretation, it's tares.->1TIMOTHY 4:1-2. -> ACTS 3:19-21->19 Repent ye therefore,and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.->20 And He shall send JESUS Christ, which before was preached unto you:->
21 Whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES of restitution of all things,
Right, Israel was tiny since the beginning, and "There was not a very large number of cities in Israel, The apostles could easily have visited them all in a year or two", as you said. Actually, our Lord JESUS knew that Israel would not be evangelized as whole, it because their hearts were hardened so that they could neither see nor hear. According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of deep slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day.
John Apostle, said:->JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.- John 1:11.
Acts 7:51-60 and 8:1-8
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
ACTS 8:1-8
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the Word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
Paul Apostle said:-> Romans 11:25->For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. -> And JESUS prophesied, saying:-> Luke 21:24-> 24 They (the people of Israel) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations(diaspora-from year 70AD until 1948, 1878 years of severe and strong chastisements, according to Deuteronomy 28:15-68):-> and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ->(Revelation 11:1-2)->The fullness of Gentile just arrived, so the Kingdom of this(current)world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.>(Revelation 11:15-18 combined with 1Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55, among many other biblical references).
Acts 3:17-18
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And He shall send JESUS Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
John 1:11-14
11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of GOD, even to them that believe on His name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Amen..
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.[Matthew 11:16-19]
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.[Matthew 12:41-45]
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.[Matthew 23:34-36]
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[Matthew 24:29-35]
And straightway he entered into a ship with his disciples, and came into the parts of Dalmanutha. And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.[Mark 8:10-13]
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.[Mark 8:34-38]
None of these usages of “this generation” remotely means a future generation, especially one two, three millennia later.
37818
Well-Known Member
Context meaning the generation that sees . . . the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: . . . .
You don’t get to play fast and loose with the word of God my friend. I showed you several places, and there are even more, that shows every time Jesus said “this generation” He meant that first century generation, not a two, three, four millennia later generation. That is apocalyptic language that is used throughout the OT when God’s judgment came upon a particular nation.
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt.
They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the LORD of hosts
In the day of His burning anger.
And it will be that like a hunted gazelle,
Or like sheep with none to gather them,
They will each turn to his own people,
And each one flee to his own land.
Anyone who is found will be thrust through,
And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces
Before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.[Isaiah 13:6-16]
Men’s hearts did not literally melt. The stars and constellations did not literally go dark, neither did the sun. The heavens did not literally tremble, neither was the earth literally shaken from its place. These sayings show the severity of punishment coming upon them, but they are not to be taken literally.
The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
“So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians;
And they will each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor,
City against city and kingdom against kingdom.
“Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them;
And I will confound their strategy,
So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead
And to mediums and spiritists.
“Moreover, I will deliver the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master,
And a mighty king will rule over them,” declares the Lord GOD of hosts.[Isaiah 19:1-4]
The Egyptians’ hearts did not literally melt. Jesus did not literally ride a swift cloud like a surf board. Their idols did not literally tremble at His presence as they are not alive.
Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples!
Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
For the LORD’S indignation is against all the nations,
And His wrath against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to slaughter.
So their slain will be thrown out,
And their corpses will give off their stench,
And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.[Isaiah 34:1-4]
Same language used in John’s Apocalypse at 6:14. It’s judgment language that is not to be taken literally.