Calvinism needs to add words to scripture

[Psalty]

I clarified your erroneous take on it by comparing scripture with scripture. I don't form doctrine from a single verse.



Ephesians Chapter 1

4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

13​	But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You err greatly by forming doctrine from a single verse.

Again, you are running to other writings of Paul to AVOID how clear Ephesians 1:4 is.

But I will give you some real bible study on this, since you prefer that.

Instead of running to other books, we stay in closely related Pauline writing… first in Ephesians, then Colossians which was likely written and carried by Tychichus at the same time.

We will stay in these books because the phrase from Eph 1:4 “holy and blameless” only occurs in 3 times in the whole NT, and all 3 in Paul’s writings: Eph 1:4, Eph 5:27, and Col 1:22.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
— Ephesians 5:27

yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach⁠—
— Colossians 1:22

What is this chosing in Christ? To be holy and blameless before Him.
In the sense of salvation? No, in the sense of the consumation at the presentation of the Bride as Eph 5 says.
Is he talking about the moment of salvation and being cleansed? No, Col 1 tells us that it will be at the moment we are presented to Christ, reinforcing the same thought from Eph 5.

So is the chosing about salvation? No, Paul says it is about choosing to be holy and blameless at our marriage presentation to Christ.

And does “in Christ” matter? Yes. If you dont have the in Him, you make this all about Him choosing you, a man centered selfish focus. This is about God chosing us only because we are in Christ. He chose us because of Christ to be holy and blameless.

Again, you fail to interpret this verse without the “in Christ” and alter the meaning.
And, you fail to address what we are chosen for, completely ignoring that it is to be Holy and Blameless at the consumation.

Let the bible interpret the bible!

 

[kyredneck]

What is this chosing in Christ?

Ephesians Chapter 1

4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

13​	But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You err greatly by forming doctrine from a single verse.

 

[Ascetic X]

The potter has the right to do as He pleases, that's 'sovereignty' in every sense of the word.

God does not want anyone to be evil or disobey Him. God does not make any person wicked.

Psalm 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Another one of your lies arising from your CDS. I know of no Calvinist that believes that.

Calvinists believe God ordains and decrees everything, including the fall of Adam. These Puritans affirm this commonly held Calvin-worshiper doctrine.

Did God ordain Adam's Fall?

My question has to do with Adam's fall. If he was created morally (and otherwise) able to sin (posse peccare) and able to not sin (posse non peccare), with a full libertarian free will and the power of contrary choice (which is what Augustine seems to have taught), did God merely know that the...

puritanboard.com

 

[Psalty]

Ephesians Chapter 1

4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

13​	But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You err greatly by forming doctrine from a single verse.

You err assuming that 2 Thess is talking about the same thing. From the beginning of what? Paul’s missions. “From the first fruits” as some early manuscripts say.

And by connecting these two verses you think:
Chose BEFORE the foundation of the world
Chose FROM the beginning
are the same? One is literally before and the other is after, even if you think the beginning is Gen 1.

Why you gotta be a runner, be a track star? Stop running and just stick with Eph 1:4 and answer the questions. They are so simple. It’s not a trap, but your Total Inability to answer shows that you know your interpretation is a logical failure and unsustainable… it’s why you wont even try to defend it on it’s own terms. It’s not rocket science… you actually don’t even need a cross-reference to understand it!

 

[Psalty]

Calvinists believe God ordains and decrees everything, including the fall of Adam. These Puritans affirm this commonly held Calvin-worshiper doctrine.

Did God ordain Adam's Fall?

My question has to do with Adam's fall. If he was created morally (and otherwise) able to sin (posse peccare) and able to not sin (posse non peccare), with a full libertarian free will and the power of contrary choice (which is what Augustine seems to have taught), did God merely know that the...

puritanboard.com

ATPollard on this website believes this. I pressed him on this in a prior thread. He was quoting Eph 1:13, that God ordains all things. I asked if God ordained the fall. He said yes, then stopped posting. I asked if God ordained the single act of sin that made the fall. He would not answer clearly. Again, a clear case of logical failure where calvinists know the implications, but simply refuse to answer because they are unwilling to test their views… God help their children not fall away when they are asked to ignore logic as well! Ripe for an atheist to pluck them apart.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To the Calvinist, the words “in Him” make no difference at all. Just how Calvin incorrectly quotes it, so to Martin and others agree. Never mind that its not even about salvation but being holy and blameless!

I did say that there was more to the Calvin quote than I had time to type out.
Here you are:

'"In Christ." This is Paul's second proof that election is gracious; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not in ourselves. We were not chosen from some perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father bestowed on us the privilege of adoption and introduced us into the body of Christ. In short, the mention of Christ excludes all human merit, and everything which human beings derive from their own resources. For when Paul says that we are "chosen in Christ," it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy.'

Before you mock someone's writings, it is a good idea to go so far as to read them. Then you might not make such a fool of yourself.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What is perhaps the most horrible doctrine of Calvin-worship is the so-called “sovereignty” (an unbiblical term) of God, which turns God into a monster who actually wills, and does not merely foreknow and allow, sin and evil to happen.

They do not understand “sovereignty”, which refers to being the ultimate ruler and law-giver over a kingdom, but not the cause of all that occurs in it.

Calvin-worshipers claim that everything that happens, no matter how vile or perverse, is caused and approved by God. They affirm that nothing is beyond the control of God and they gleefully ascribe diabolical deeds to Him. They feel no shame or impiety in making these outrageous, sacrilegious, and shockingly immoral assertions.

This is not the thrice-holy God of the Bible, who is Love and Light, and in Whom is no darkness at all.

Proverbs 16:4. 'The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.'
Psalm 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him.
Isaiah 45:6-7. 'I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'
Luke 13:2-4. 'And Jesus answered them and said, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."'

What is perhaps the most horrible doctrine of this strange outbreak of Calvin-hating, is the pathetic non-god that they appear to worship, who sits by and wrings his hands whenever something bad occurs and bleats, "Oh, how dreadful all this is, but I'm just not powerful enough to do anything about it!"
If anyone wants a sensible discussion of Theodicy and the problem of evil, he should start a new thread.

BTW, the word 'sovereign' apears over 100 times in the NIV, the most popular Bible version in English,
as a translation of Adonai Yahweh in the O.T., and five times in the N.T.

 

[Psalty]

I did say that there was more to the Calvin quote than I had time to type out.
Here you are:

'"In Christ." This is Paul's second proof that election is gracious; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not in ourselves. We were not chosen from some perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father bestowed on us the privilege of adoption and introduced us into the body of Christ. In short, the mention of Christ excludes all human merit, and everything which human beings derive from their own resources. For when Paul says that we are "chosen in Christ," it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy.'

Before you mock someone's writings, it is a good idea to go so far as to read them. Then you might not make such a fool of yourself.

The thread is about calvinists adding (or in this case taking away) words and altering meaning. You did a selective quote to make it sound like salvation. Can you really not see how you come off?

And now you add more to the quote that is still talking about salvation… wrongly conflating verse 5s adoption as salvation… which is actually about glorification, just like “holy and blameless”.

I will not return your fool remark as my Lord forbids it, but you have perfectly demonstrated AsetcXs point!

 

[Psalty]

Proverbs 16:4. 'The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.'
Psalm 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever pleases Him.
Isaiah 45:6-7. 'I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'
Luke 13:2-4. 'And Jesus answered them and said, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."'

What is perhaps the most horrible doctrine of this strange outbreak of Calvin-hating, is the pathetic non-god that they appear to worship, who sits by and wrings his hands whenever something bad occurs and bleats, "Oh, how dreadful all this is, but I'm just not powerful enough to do anything about it!"
If anyone wants a sensible discussion of Theodicy and the problem of evil, he should start a new thread.

BTW, the word 'sovereign' apears over 100 times in the NIV, the most popular Bible version in English,
as a translation of Adonai Yahweh in the O.T., and five times in the N.T.

All of these have been answered so many times. You are like that record that has the needle skip… things get pointed out, arguments progress, then your logic is completely inadequate and you skip back to the scripture that was being discussed at the beginning. As if that answers anything that has already been said!

 

[atpollard]

Christianity will triumph over Calvinism.

2 Corinthians 2:14

Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

That doesn't sound like FREE WILL, it sounds like "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE".

 

[Psalty]

That doesn't sound like FREE WILL, it sounds like "IRRESISTIBLE GRACE".

Sounds to me like Paul is saying in Christ, Gods message will prevail in going forth as Paul and his apostolic helpers preach it. Nothing effectual about it.

Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ and when a door was opened for me in the Lord, I had no rest for my spirit, not finding Titus my brother; but taking my leave of them, I went on to Macedonia.
But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.
— 2 Corinthians 2:12-14

 

[atpollard]

What is perhaps the most horrible doctrine of Calvin-worship is the so-called “sovereignty” (an unbiblical term) of God, which turns God into a monster who actually wills, and does not merely foreknow and allow, sin and evil to happen.

Psalm 103:19 [NASB] The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.
1 Timothy 6:15 [NASB] which He will bring about at [the] proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

 

[atpollard]

ATPollard on this website believes this. I pressed him on this in a prior thread. He was quoting Eph 1:13, that God ordains all things. I asked if God ordained the fall. He said yes, then stopped posting. I asked if God ordained the single act of sin that made the fall. He would not answer clearly. Again, a clear case of logical failure where calvinists know the implications, but simply refuse to answer because they are unwilling to test their views… God help their children not fall away when they are asked to ignore logic as well! Ripe for an atheist to pluck them apart.

2 Timothy 2:23 [NASB] But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:9-11 [NLT] Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them.

 

[Psalty]

Psalm 103:19 [NASB] The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.
1 Timothy 6:15 [NASB] which He will bring about at [the] proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

You know that Sovereign = King, right?

Psalm 103, His kingship Rules over all
1Tim 6 the blessed and only King

Does it mean that a king makes every decision for His subjects and effectually causes all thing? No.

Does that mean a free will person thinks that God could make everyone do what He wants? Also No.

 

[DaveXR650]

To the Calvinist, the words “in Him” make no difference at all. Just how Calvin incorrectly quotes it, so to Martin and others agree. Never mind that its not even about salvation but being holy and blameless!

Psalty. The words "in Him" make a huge difference. If you know of any Calvinist writers who take out "in Him" for a purpose (by that I mean deny that it means anything or explain it away) would you let me know. If you are trying to do like many non-Calvinists do, in that you are trying to negate the whole concept of election by saying that the only thing God did sovereignly was set up the method by which we could be saved - well, now you are getting into the weeds theologically, as well as murdering the meaning of election.

Also, to say that Ephesians 1:4 is speaking of being holy and blameless and therefore it is not talking about salvation flies in the face of the fact that in order to be saved at all we must indeed be considered "holy and blameless". Even for a non-Calvinist, the idea of being found in Christ is so that when God looks at you he sees Christ - who is holy and blameless.

 

[Psalty]

2 Timothy 2:23 [NASB] But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:9-11 [NLT] Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them.

Run away from the logical and scriptural conclusions of your system!

It shows to others how weak your system is, and how you attribute evil to God! Just dont be upset when I keep pointing it out for others to recognize… realize that you have left gaping holes.

 

[Psalty]

Psalty. The words "in Him" make a huge difference. If you know of any Calvinist writers who take out "in Him" for a purpose (by that I mean deny that it means anything or explain it away) would you let me know. If you are trying to do like many non-Calvinists do, in that you are trying to negate the whole concept of election by saying that the only thing God did sovereignly was set up the method by which we could be saved - well, now you are getting into the weeds theologically, as well as murdering the meaning of election.

Also, to say that Ephesians 1:4 is speaking of being holy and blameless and therefore it is not talking about salvation flies in the face of the fact that in order to be saved at all we must indeed be considered "holy and blameless". Even for a non-Calvinist, the idea of being found in Christ is so that when God looks at you he sees Christ - who is holy and blameless.

I would point you to post 161

Edit: and regarding election: God elected Israel at Sinai. Were they all saved? I think you need to dig deeper on election.

 

[atpollard]

Run away from the logical and scriptural conclusions of your system!

It shows to others how weak your system is, and how you attribute evil to God! Just dont be upset when I keep pointing it out for others to recognize… realize that you have left gaping holes.

Actually, it shows that I am tired of you and debating whether to simply "ignore" you or exercise the "IGNORE" function.

You are rude and unprofitable in all your discussions (I just read your last 3 pages of posting) ... so function it is.

 

[Psalty]

Actually, it shows that I am tired of you and debating whether to simply "ignore" you or exercise the "IGNORE" function.

You are rude and unprofitable in all your discussions (I just read your last 3 pages of posting) ... so function it is.

You cant stick with an argument, and you dont have answers. Your systematic fails on every level, and its good to show it.

 

[DaveXR650]

Edit: and regarding election: God elected Israel at Sinai. Were they all saved? I think you need to dig deeper on election.

It shows what election really means. The burden of the choice being upon the one choosing, not setting up a method for choosing. "Elected" in the case of Israel meant a specific people among many peoples. Your point about election would be well taken if God had opened it up to any group of people who showed up at Sinai and received the Law. They were not all saved, because election in that case was not individual and not for eternal salvation, but corporate, of a people. They certainly were all "elect" in that they all were of Israel, whom God says in other places, in case they forgot, that there was absolutely nothing about them that warranted them being chosen - but God.