Did Aaron Invent Rock Music 3400 or So Years Ago Before Elvis?

[JonC]

@Scripture More Accurately

We need to clarify for the board (I can see how the areas we are talking about could be confused with the use of "Asia").

We have been talking about ANE music (think Mesopotamia). By "Eastern" we are dealing with the Middle East.

We, obviously, are not talking about Eastern Asia (China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc.).


@Scripture More Accurately was correcting me when I said that the ANE music would sound foreign to him. Although I did not realize it, he was raised in the Middle East and is familiar with their worship music.

To me this music is harsh and chaotic. I have traveled, but I have a Western ear for music. I am not one to listen to monophonic music.

I do not find contemporary East Asian music harsh (I actually like it). Even Arabic music, in general, is pleasant. Indian music? That one is a hard pass. But the worship music of the Middle East is something I find overly harsh.


The problem with the OP is @Scripture More Accurately makes connections that are not there.

At first (on the surface) he or she was describing a general (and subjective) "wildness" or "warlike" sound. The problem here is the worship music of the Temple could (probably would) sound "warlike" to us. Another issue is that Scripture does not actually describe that music in such a way (that was an asdimption).

BUT then @Scripture More Accurately linked "rock music" to music that Christians use to worship God, claiming God rejects their worship. This wss where he/she went from assumption to the accuser of God's people.


Everything about rock music (the style, the beat, the time signature) is foreign to any music used in the biblical account.

Everything about the style of traditional hymns and CWM is foreign to the style of music used in the OT and the NT to worship God.

What do we know about the music they used? It was loud and "harsh". They used drums, horns, cymbols, and stringed instruments. It was very emotional.

That's it. Our music (traditional hymns and CWM) is completely foreign to the music of the bible in style. BUT not in the Object of worship.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I think many of us were not exposed to worship music in any meaningful way until after our conversion.

Again....my question was WHY you believe that God accepts that music (traditional hymns).

This traditional music is very different from ancient Near Eastern music.

I am not sure what part of Asia you grew up in, I assume it was the Near East and you are saying you grew up with Ancient Near Eastern worship music (you enjoyed the ancient harp, ram's horn, ḥatzotzerah, frame drum, timbrels and cymbals).

So you are a child of two worlds (three including Christian).

You understand, then, just how chaotic and harsh the ANE music sounds to the Western ear.

BUT you also understand the complaints of how dead our traditional worship music (and CWM, for that matter) sound to those who are accustomed to worshipping God in a monophonic style absent harmony.


So....again...the question I have asked you is why you believe that God accepts your worship but not Christians who worship with CWM (especially since CWM has more in common with the worship practices of the Hebrews and Apostlic Church).


I am obviously dismissing your claim that the music of the Isralites mirrored or had a kinship to CWM (Christian music with a "rock beat"). The reason is this "rock beat" is a Western comcept foreign to even ANE pagain worship. You are bading it in what YOU think is "wild" or "warlike", witch is foolish.


BUT here is why I ask -

ANE worship is loud, the instruments are designed to be loud. The worship is constructed more like CWM (the leader-led type of singing). The type of music is very much based on emotion.

But traditional hymn music is more subdued, more formulated, less emotional (the lyrics may be emotional but the music itself is typically calming rather than designed to elicit emotion).

Obviously neither traditional hymn music or CWM as types are remotely similar to what was used in ANE worship.

So WHY do you think, if the type of accompanying music determines whether God accepts or rejects the music, that God accepts your worship?


Do you even use stringed instruments, drums, and horns in your worship service???

Wrong again. You assume things that are wrong. I am not from the Middle East. I am not going to specify any further for you where I am from because that is irrelevant to my point---you make accusations without knowledge.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

This is a false claim (you should apologize).

I am talking strictly about CWM (as a few posts back you said God rejected it based in the type of music).

I am not advocating ANY music style over another.

What does the Bible say to use in worship?

Drums, stringed instruments, cymbals, and horns. But that was, I believe, cultural.

Does your worship service use drums, stringed instruments and horns? Do you refrain from harmony?


As far as the claim goes, linking CWM with ANE pagan worship because of a "rock beat" you think is "warlike"....well....that is just stupid. There is no other way to put it.

ANE pagan worship sounded like ANE worship. It was cultural. Mormon hymns sound like Christian hymns. It is not the style but the worship.


Basing God's acceptance or rejection of a Christian's worship on cultural aspects of the accompanying music is essentially witchcraft. You believe one can control God's approval or rejection by differing music styles.


Here is my opinion - you hold onto racist dogma (you hold on to racist propaganda even as the racist aspects fell aside). You hold a religion along with Christianity that is akin to witchcraft. You play God, determining that God accepts your worship although the style is foreign to the music of the Bible and that He rejects music that you do not like.

You have become the accuser of the brethren.


Now...as far as your worship, if it is in spirit and truth, I believe God accepts it even though you may not use drums, cymbals, horns and stringed instruments. The only hesitation I have is the log in your eye as you accuse God's children.

Wow, you are a moderator? There are so many false claims here ("racist," "witchcraft," "accuser of the brethren") . . . I will not challenge you any further about the specific claims in this post. Suffice it to say, you have uttered many words that are untrue and are going to give a fearful account to God for your many false statements about me.

The fact stands that you refuse to engage with the specifics of what Scripture says.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

@Scripture More Accurately

We need to clarify for the board (I can see how the areas we are talking about could be confused with the use of "Asia").

We have been talking about ANE music (think Mesopotamia). By "Eastern" we are dealing with the Middle East.

We, obviously, are not talking about Eastern Asia (China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc.).


@Scripture More Accurately was correcting me when I said that the ANE music would sound foreign to him. Although I did not realize it, he was raised in the Middle East and is familiar with their worship music.

To me this music is harsh and chaotic. I have traveled, but I have a Western ear for music. I am not one to listen to monophonic music.

I do not find contemporary East Asian music harsh (I actually like it). Even Arabic music, in general, is pleasant. Indian music? That one is a hard pass. But the worship music of the Middle East is something I find overly harsh.


The problem with the OP is @Scripture More Accurately makes connections that are not there.

At first (on the surface) he or she was describing a general (and subjective) "wildness" or "warlike" sound. The problem here is the worship music of the Temple could (probably would) sound "warlike" to us. Another issue is that Scripture does not actually describe that music in such a way (that was an asdimption).

BUT then @Scripture More Accurately linked "rock music" to music that Christians use to worship God, claiming God rejects their worship. This wss where he/she went from assumption to the accuser of God's people.


Everything about rock music (the style, the beat, the time signature) is foreign to any music used in the biblical account.

Everything about the style of traditional hymns and CWM is foreign to the style of music used in the OT and the NT to worship God.

What do we know about the music they used? It was loud and "harsh". They used drums, horns, cymbols, and stringed instruments. It was very emotional.

That's it. Our music (traditional hymns and CWM) is completely foreign to the music of the bible in style. BUT not in the Object of worship.

Your claims about the Temple music are false. Scripture teaches that the worship music of God's people that was acceptable to God was solemn, pleasant, joyful, and much more aesthetically beautiful than you wrongly make it out to be. Those are divine assessments/demands---they are not human opinions.

 

[JonC]

Your claims about the Temple music are false. Scripture teaches that the worship music of God's people that was acceptable to God was solemn, pleasant, joyful, and much more aesthetically beautiful than you wrongly make it out to be. Those are divine assessments/demands---they are not human opinions.

I am sure it was pleasing to their ear, as it was their culture. But no, it was not "beautiful" in terms of pleasing in a Western (or even Asian) contemporary sence.

The worship music in the Temple was monophonic. The frame drums were not quietly tapped, the horns were not softlety blown, the stringed instruments were not strummed with a light touch as a modern harp.

The music (which included harps, lyres, trumpets, cymbals) was designed to express the majesty of God, to heighten the mood and complement the sacrifice. The music was loud, intending to symbolize the power of God.


The type pf music you describe would not be suitable for Temple worship.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am sure it was pleasing to their ear, as it was their culture. But no, it was not "beautiful" in terms of pleasing in a Western (or even Asian) contemporary sence.

The worship music in the Temple was monophonic. The frame drums were not quietly tapped, the horns were not softlety blown, the stringed instruments were not strummed with a light touch as a modern harp.

The music (which included harps, lyres, trumpets, cymbals) was designed to express the majesty of God, to heighten the mood and complement the sacrifice. The music was loud, intending to symbolize the power of God.


The type pf music you describe would not be suitable for Temple worship.

What God says defines what is and is not true. When He says that something was pleasant, solemn, beautiful, etc., those things are objectively true regardless of any differing human opinions about those things. The Temple music was objectively solemn, pleasant, beautiful, and acceptable to God because He says so; they were not so just because it was "pleasant to their ear, as it was their culture."

 

[JonC]

What God says defines what is and is not true. When He says that something was pleasant, solemn, beautiful, etc., those things are objectively true regardless of any differing human opinions about those things. The Temple music was objectively solemn, pleasant, beautiful, and acceptable to God because He says so; they were not so just because it was "pleasant to their ear, as it was their culture."

It was pleasing to God's ears. You confuse God with yourself.

CWM is beautiful. It is pleasing. It may not be your preference but you are not God.

"Solemn" in terms of worship music means serious, not subdued or quite. Worship is serious.

You forget the instruments God told them to use. Yes, you can play the lyre softly. But the shofar is not an instrument that can be played quietly. The frame drums were not played by tapping softly.

You miss out on a lot of things about ancient worship because of your "god complex". But that is fine. The problem is you have allowed your ignorance and predjudices to make you an accuser of the brethren.

 

[JonC]

What God says defines what is and is not true.

God commanded this worship in music. He said to use trumpets, drums, cymbals, and stringed instruments.

Do you use trumpets, drums, cymbals, and stringed instruments in corporate worship?

God describes praise in worship as "shouting".

Do you shout praise songs or sing quietly?

God says to praise Him with "loud clashing cymbals".

Do you use loud clashing cymbals to praise God?

God said to worship Him with a joyful sound by playing loudly on musical instruments, specifically harps, lyres, and cymbals.

Do you worship Him by playing loudly on musical instruments?

God says to worship with "loud shouts".

Do you worship with loud shouts?


Scripture, over and over again, contradicts your claims.

You would do better to read what the Bible DOES say about this issue instead of making assumptions about what is not said.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It was pleasing to God's ears. You confuse God with yourself.

CWM is beautiful. It is pleasing. It may not be your preference but you are not God.

"Solemn" in terms of worship music means serious, not subdued or quite. Worship is serious.

You forget the instruments God told them to use. Yes, you can play the lyre softly. But the shofar is not an instrument that can be played quietly. The frame drums were not played by tapping softly.

You miss out on a lot of things about ancient worship because of your "god complex". But that is fine. The problem is you have allowed your ignorance and predjudices to make you an accuser of the brethren.

Prove it from Scripture. You have zero Scripture that speaks of CWM. You beg the question that any kind of instrumental music can be used acceptably to God in worship.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

God commanded this worship in music. He said to use trumpets, drums, cymbals, and stringed instruments.

Do you use trumpets, drums, cymbals, and stringed instruments in corporate worship?

God describes praise in worship as "shouting".

Do you shout praise songs or sing quietly?

God says to praise Him with "loud clashing cymbals".

Do you use loud clashing cymbals to praise God?

God said to worship Him with a joyful sound by playing loudly on musical instruments, specifically harps, lyres, and cymbals.

Do you worship Him by playing loudly on musical instruments?

God says to worship with "loud shouts".

Do you worship with loud shouts?


Scripture, over and over again, contradicts your claims.

You would do better to read what the Bible DOES say about this issue instead of making assumptions about what is not said.

My church uses these instruments in worship. The Bible never specifies that all of the instruments were used or were to be used all the time on every occasion of worship.

The Bible explicitly compares loveless speech to certain soundings of brass and cymbals. Not all soundings of brass or cymbals are acceptable to God.

You wrongly assert that any and all uses of any and all instruments are pleasing to God---they are not.

The worship music of my church is appropriately loud. It does not use sounds played at decibel levels known to damage human hearing upon prolonged exposure such as CWM churches do and thereby sonically abuse God's people.

Actually, it's your views that Scripture contradicts and does not support. God commands His people not to be conformed to the world but your music takes the ungodly music of evil people and uses it in worship.

I have read the whole Bible every single year of my Christian life and have read the book of Psalms more than 100 times.

 

[JonC]

Prove it from Scripture. You have zero Scripture that speaks of CWM. You beg the question that any kind of instrumental music can be used acceptable to God in worship.

I did. What I have you WAS from Scripture. If you bothered to read God's Word, other than supporting your prejudices, you would have recognized that fact.

Here is how God says to worship Him (going down several passages) -

1. joyfully by playing loudly on harps, lyres, and cymbals.

2. Loudly shouting in praise.

3. Worship using "loud clashing symbols".

4. Worship with "loud voices".

5. Worship by shouting.

6. Worship by "clapping your hands and singing with a very loud voice"

7. Worship by playing trumpets.

8. Worship by "playing loudly on musical instruments".

9. Worship by playing stringed instruments.

10. Worship by playing the strings and loudly shouting.


Those are just 10 points describing how God said to worship Him. And those are directly from Scripture.

 

[JonC]

My church uses these instruments in worship. The Bible never specifies that all of the instruments were used or were to be used all the time on every occasion of worship.

The Bible explicitly compares loveless speech to certain soundings of brass and cymbals. Not all soundings of brass or cymbals are acceptable to God.

You wrongly assert that any and all uses of any and all instruments are pleasing to God---they are not.

The worship music of my church is appropriately loud. It does not use sounds played at decibel levels known to damage human hearing upon prolonged exposure such as CWM churches do and thereby sonically abuse God's people.

Actually, it's your views that Scripture contradicts and does not support. God commands His people not to be conformed to the world but your music takes the ungodly music of evil people and uses it in worship.

I have read the whole Bible every single year of my Christian life and have read the book of Psalms more than 100 times.

I agree that instruments are versatile.

But what does the Bible actually say?

1. joyfully by playing loudly on harps, lyres, and cymbals.

2. Loudly shouting in praise.

3. Worship using "loud clashing symbols".

4. Worship with "loud voices".

5. Worship by shouting.

6. Worship by "clapping your hands and singing with a very loud voice"

7. Worship by playing trumpets.

8. Worship by "playing loudly on musical instruments".

9. Worship by playing stringed instruments.

10. Worship by playing the strings and loudly shouting.



I am glad you also worship by clapping your hands, playing loudly on musical instruments, by shouting, by loudly clashing symbols.

I am not saying we need to exclude more quiet music. But we cannot condemn the loud music God commanded either.

Both the contemplation of God's love for us and praising God for His might and glory are equal truths.

 

[Salty]

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[Scripture More Accurately]

I agree that instruments are versatile.

But what does the Bible actually say?

1. joyfully by playing loudly on harps, lyres, and cymbals.

2. Loudly shouting in praise.

3. Worship using "loud clashing symbols".

4. Worship with "loud voices".

5. Worship by shouting.

6. Worship by "clapping your hands and singing with a very loud voice"

7. Worship by playing trumpets.

8. Worship by "playing loudly on musical instruments".

9. Worship by playing stringed instruments.

10. Worship by playing the strings and loudly shouting.



I am glad you also worship by clapping your hands, playing loudly on musical instruments, by shouting, by loudly clashing symbols.

I am not saying we need to exclude more quiet music. But we cannot condemn the loud music God commanded either.

Both the contemplation of God's love for us and praising God for His might and glory are equal truths.

These are not the only things that the Bible says about music, both explicitly and by way of principle. Holding that God accepts all kinds of instrumental music of all people has no biblical basis to support it, and many passages in Scripture teach us by way of legitimate application that many kinds of occult instrumental music must be categorically rejected by God's people.

For example,

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

In order for God's people to blessed as God wants them to be, they must not walk in the ungodly counsel of evil occultists concerning musical instruments and kinds of instrumental music, such as voodoo music, the music of Santería, the music of Candomblé, Tibetan skull drum music, and the music of shamans all over the world.

 

[JonC]

These are not the only things that the Bible says about music, both explicitly and by way of principle. Holding that God accepts all kinds of instrumental music of all people has no biblical basis to support it, and many passages in Scripture teach us by way of legitimate application that many kinds of occult instrumental music must be categorically rejected by God's people.

For example,

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

In order for God's people to blessed as God wants them to be, they must not walk in the ungodly counsel of evil occultists concerning musical instruments and kinds of instrumental music, such as voodoo music, the music of Santería, the music of Candomblé, Tibetan skull drum music, and the music of shamans all over the world.

You are assuming that "walking in the counsel of the ungodly, standeth in the way of sinners, sitteth in the seat of the scornful " is talking about music.

It is not.

When it comes to worshipping God we are told to worship in spirit and in truth. We are not told what styles to use.

Israel was commanded to worship God with loud music, with shouting, loud singing, loudly clashing together cymbals, playing drums, shouting, clapping hands, dancing, blowing horns, etc.


But that was their culture and custom. God was not telling them how to worship but telling them to worship with everything they are (all their heart, in spirit and in truth). They used instruments and styles as was common to their culture.



But the point here is that Scripture specifically states that what God approved of in their worship you would condemn.

That is why I say that you have made yourself the "satan" of believers. You are the accuser of God's children when it comes to this topic.



In reality the style of music other Christians use is absolutely none of your business.

We can and will have preferences, different types of music that is honest to us (our expression rather than appropriating another's expression).

That is fine. Nobody is demanding you like CWM. Nobody is demanding you like, or use, "loud clanging symbols", "clapping", frame drums, shouts, loud singing, loud horns, dancing in worship...etc.

It is OK for you to prefer and use "quiet", "solemn" music.

Your sin is in your accusations and condemnation against the worship music of other brethren. And yes, that is literally a sin. You put yourself against God in that instance by becoming the accuser of the body of Christ.


You are responsible for your worship. It is not your role to decide if God accepts the worship of other Christians based on their style of music.

You are allowing your prejudices to dictate how you view your brethren.

 

[JonC]

F???

Had to run.....meant to cancel but hit "post". I fixed it.

 

[Ascetic X]

You are assuming that "walking in the counsel of the ungodly, standeth in the way of sinners, sitteth in the seat of the scornful " is talking about music.

It is not.

Your sin is in your accusations and condemnation against the worship music of other brethren. And yes, that is literally a sin. You put yourself against God in that instance by becoming the accuser of the body of Christ.


You are responsible for your worship. It is not your role to decide if God accepts the worship of other Christians based on their style of music.

You are allowing your prejudices to dictate how you view your brethren.

Notice that this is all he talks about. An axe he is grinding. He expresses a holier than thou attitude.

I prefer hymns and hymn books. I think repetitious praise choruses can be hypnotic, new agey. Loud rock worship bands are annoying, not uplifting. But I liked Larry Norman when I was a teen. Tastes can change over time.

But I cannot judge worship styles.

At a local Calvary Baptist church, my wife and I went through their new member class. The syllabus contained only one page on the new birth, but 8 pages on “music pastor approves of”. He considered Steve Green too wild.

There were churches in the 1800s that could not afford a piano or organ, so the pastors made a doctrine of how musical instruments were not biblical for NT churches.

Music should not be the magnet to lure people to a church. Strong gospel preaching and genuine love in practice are the draw.

 

[JonC]

Notice that this is all he talks about. An axe he is grinding. He expresses a holier than thou attitude.

I prefer hymns and hymn books. I think repetitious praise choruses can be hypnotic, new agey. Loud rock worship bands are annoying, not uplifting. But I liked Larry Norman when I was a teen. Tastes can change over time.

But I cannot judge worship styles.

At a local Calvary Baptist church, my wife and I went through their new member class. The syllabus contained only one page on the new birth, but 8 pages on “music pastor approves of”. He considered Steve Green too wild.

There were churches in the 1800s that could not afford a piano or organ, so the pastors made a doctrine of how musical instruments were not biblical for NT churches.

Music should not be the magnet to lure people to a church. Strong gospel preaching and genuine love in practice are the draw.

I agree.

Music should not be a "magnet" to lure people to church. But I doubt it is ever such a thing. Nobody listens to secular music in a "traditional worship" or a CWM style. These are different types of music, but they are unique in that they cannot be confused as secular.

Typically people, when looking at worship styles, choose one that allows them to worship as a true expression of worship. And a lot if this is cultural.

We look at the sermon as the "main thing". But worship in music (the praise of God) was often the focus point of services. Sometimes we seem to consider worship music as an adornment to a worship service.


I find it interesting that so much of the things @Scripture More Accurately condemns was so important to the worship music of the Bible. The reason is the focus of the music.

One would not play quietly while praising God for His power and might (at least in ancient times). It is glorifying God for who He is that inspired the loud shouts, the changing symbols, the frame drums, etc.


Would I join a church that sung only traditional hymns? Probably not as worship is important to me and in time I would miss praising God as an expression of worship. I also would not, for the same reasons, join a church that used the ancient worship style used in the Bible.


Worship music (praising God in song) is not less important than the sermon. I think that we often miss that truth today (perhaps because of the importance theological divisions play today).

 

[Salty]

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[Scripture More Accurately]

You are assuming that "walking in the counsel of the ungodly, standeth in the way of sinners, sitteth in the seat of the scornful " is talking about music.

It is not.

Wrong. You do not just get to assert that something is true and not prove it from Scripture. You claim that Psalm 1:1 is not talking about music. Prove it from Scripture.