The Biblical Basis for Penal Substitution, part 2

[JonC]

Hebrews 9:22.

Nope. Here is that verse -

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The shedding of blood is necessary (it is a sacrifice, or more precisely a korbanot, which literally means "to draw near"). This was not to appease God's. This was NOT the atonement.

Since the shedding of blood was necessary, but not the actual atonement (not making atonement for sins), what was the actual atonement?

The priest made atonement for the people (and before this for himself) by taking blood to the alter and applying that blood.

See -

He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.


The life is in the blood.

Same with Passover. It was necessary to offer a lamb. That lambs blood had to be shed.

BUT the killing of the lamb, the shedding of blood, was not what delivered them from death. It was the blood applied to their door posts.

You have misunderstood the significance of the OT sacrifices. The life is in the blood.

 

[JonC]

If I go shopping on your behalf, I go shopping, you don't. It would make no sense for me to do your shopping if you do it anyway. I go shopping in your place; I shop instead of you.

This is a poor illustration (not of your view but of an objective view...you are simply illustrating your understanding).

I could talk to an employer on your behalf, for you, praising your work ethic. This would not be instead of you.

"One one's behalf" could be a substitution. It could be a representative substitute (like a lawyer representing you in a court). Or it could be a direct substitute (like me standing in for you in a ball game). But it also may not be a substitute at all. It could simply be on your behalf, for you.

 

[percho]

No, according to Scripture it is impossible that Christ experienced God's wrath.

Psalm 22 foreshadows the Cross. This psalm starts with the Servant crying out "My God, why have you forsaken me". But what directly follows is a percise faith that God will not abandon His righteous although they be forsaken to suffer, even die, at the hands of the enemy.

The Servant even appeals to God's righteousness exhibited to His forefathers. God will deliver Him as God delivered them. God will not punish them but remain faithful to His words. God will not clear the wicked but instead will exercise judgment to His enemies.


"Hades" is the Greek for "sheol". It means the grave. We have to remember that Hell in the sence of the Lake of Fire does not exist at this moment.

Hades is not speaking of a part of Paradise. Paradise was where the saints would go when they went to Hades (Sheol).

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why did Jesus say that?
Why did Jesus say that at the ninth hour?
What did Jesus mean by, "forsaken"?

Christ, was put to death to the flesh. 1 Peter 3:18 When?
Christ, was made alive to the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18 When?

 

[JonC]

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why did Jesus say that?
Why did Jesus say that at the ninth hour?
What did Jesus mean by, "forsaken"?

Christ, was put to death to the flesh. 1 Peter 3:18 When?
Christ, was made alive to the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18 When?

We do not have to wonder why. Psalm 22 foreshadows the Cross.

The Servant in Psalm 22 was forsaken to suffer and die.

At the start of the psalm the Servant cries out "My God, My God, why have you Forsaken Me?".

Then what immediately follows is the Servant recalling others (His forefathers) that were forsaking to suffer but God did not abandon them, He was faithful and delivered them.

Did they suffer? Yes. They were not delivered from suffering but through suffering.

And the Servant places His trust in the faithfulness of God knowing He will not abandon Him because of two things -

1. God did not abandon the prophets although theu were forsaken to suffer.

2. God is faithful and has declared He will not abandon His servants.

And as the Psalm come towards its conclusion God has heard the cry of the Servant and delivers Him, again not from suffering but through suffering.


For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

He was put to death in the flesh. He died on the Crosd.

He was made alive in the Spirit - the Firstborn of what is to be many brethren- "made a life giving Spirit" afterwards.

I do not know if this means upon rising on the third day or when He ascended.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nope. Here is that verse -

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The shedding of blood is necessary (it is a sacrifice, or more precisely a korbanot, which literally means "to draw near"). This was not to appease God's. This was NOT the atonement.

Since the shedding of blood was necessary, but not the actual atonement (not making atonement for sins), what was the actual atonement?

Lev. 17:11. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls.' You are hopelessly at sea here, tied up in your own faulty philosophy.

The priest made atonement for the people (and before this for himself) by taking blood to the alter and applying that blood.

See -

He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.


The life is in the blood.

Same with Passover. It was necessary to offer a lamb. That lambs blood had to be shed.

BUT the killing of the lamb, the shedding of blood, was not what delivered them from death. It was the blood applied to their door posts.

You have misunderstood the significance of the OT sacrifices. The life is in the blood.

You fail to understand the meaning of the sacrifices.
We all know that 'it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins' (Heb. 10:4). The blood of the animals was an adumbration (foreshadowing) of the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world.
We all also know that 'the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls' (Lev. 17:11). The first mention of an altar in the Bible is Gen. 8:20, but before that Abel had sacrificed a lamb to the Lord and his offering was accepted because it looked forward by faith to Christ who would shed His blood, though not on an altar. It is not the altar but the blood, and the blood speaks of the life sacrificed. God is propitiated by the blood of Christ (Rom. 3:25; we are justified by His blood (Rom. 5:9); we have redemption through His blood (Eph. 1:7); we are brought near by His blood (Eph. 2:13); we have peace through His blood (Col. 1:20); we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:19); His blood cleanses us from all iniquity (1 John 1:7), and He has washed us from our sins in His own blood (Rev. 1:5)

 

[JonC]

Lev. 17:11. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls.' You are hopelessly at sea here, tied up in your own faulty philosophy.



You fail to understand the meaning of the sacrifices.
We all know that 'it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins' (Heb. 10:4). The blood of the animals was an adumbration (foreshadowing) of the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world.
We all also know that 'the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls' (Lev. 17:11). The first mention of an altar in the Bible is Gen. 8:20, but before that Abel had sacrificed a lamb to the Lord and his offering was accepted because it looked forward by faith to Christ who would shed His blood, though not on an altar. It is not the altar but the blood, and the blood speaks of the life sacrificed. God is propitiated by the blood of Christ (Rom. 3:25; we are justified by His blood (Rom. 5:9); we have redemption through His blood (Eph. 1:7); we are brought near by His blood (Eph. 2:13); we have peace through His blood (Col. 1:20); we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:19); His blood cleanses us from all iniquity (1 John 1:7), and He has washed us from our sins in His own blood (Rev. 1:5)

Now you are being foolish.

I already said the OT sacrifices foreshadowed the work of Christ.
My point is in the Hebrew religion and in Christianity it is not the shedding of blood, the killing of the sacrifice, that was viewed as an atonement.

It was the blood applied (as the verses you provide demonstrate).

The blood of Christ cleanses from all unrighteousness.

The priest made atonement for the people by applying blood to the altar.

Death passed over the Isralites because of the blood applied to the door posts.

The priest applied blood to the entrance of the meeting.

Life is in the blood.

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith

PSA mistepresents the sacrifices to indicate the killing of the animal made atondment, or that Christ's death was rhe atonement. BUT if we read the Bible we know that the atonement followed. The shedding of blood is necessary but it is the application that is the atonement.


And yes, I know korbanot is about obedience. In the Hebrew religion the sacrifice never stood as appeasing God. It never even had divine wrath in mind. It means "draw close" and it was viewed as a gift of obedience.

You are not the only one that spent a decade studying this stuff at university. Even if I had no degree I could still read the Bible and conclude PSA was very wrong. The hard part is taking those blinders off.

You probably did not even read the verses you posted. They literally state exactly what I have been saying (probably because I used the same passages).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Since the shedding of blood was necessary, but not the actual atonement (not making atonement for sins), what was the actual atonement?

Lev. 17:11. 'For it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls.'

'Nuff said.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. There are penal aspects.

Perhaps you would like to list these so that we know what you think they are.

But that does not make it Christ experiencing God's punishment (you assume that is in the text).

Well it does. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' If that is not punishment, what is it? 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' You take the two texts together (they are in the same chapter after all), and you can see that 'He was pierced for our transgressions.' 'The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.' It all fits together wonderfully.

But I want to look for a moment at Christ becoming a curse for us. It will be helpful to look at Gal. 3:10-14. Who is it who cursed lawbreakers? 'For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"' (Gal. 3:10, quoting Deut. 27:26). Since it is God's law which would be broken, it must be God's curse that was being recited on Mt. Ebal.

But 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.' How can Christ become a curse, since He never broke God's law? Because 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the TREE.' Why does Peter use the word 'tree' [Gk. xulon] instead of 'cross' [Gk. stauron]? Because of Deut. 21:23. 'For He who is hanged [on a tree: vs. 22-23] is accursed of God.' He bore our sins and the curse of them on the wooden cross, and He 'has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. If my iniquity is laid on Christ (which it is), it is no longer on me. If Christ has redeemed me from the curse of the law, then I am no longer cursed by it. He has paid in full the penalty of the law, which is death, and from the curse attached to it by dying on the cursed tree. Penal Substitution. He was condemned; I am no longer condemned (Romans 8:1). He died; I have died to sin. He is risen; I have eternal life in Him. Check out Genesis 3:17-19; Romans 8:18-25; Rev. 22:3-5.

 

[JonC]

'Nuff said.

Yes, we agree that it is the blood.

The reason this gets convoluted some times is so many PSA theorists argue that it is the death.

I believe that the OT imagery (the details provided in God's instruction) and the details in the NT are intentional.

So of we look to atonement views we see very different ideas.

PSA viewes Christ's death (Christ taking on our punishment) as the method of forgiveness, as atonement. Our sins are removed from us, placed on Christ, and punished there.

Christis Victor views Christ's death as the sacrifice but forgiveness being in the blood cleansing from unrighteous. The atonement is in the blood applied (like the OT sacrifice model, like the Passover model).

 

[JonC]

Perhaps you would like to list these so that we know what you think they are.

Well it does. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' If that is not punishment, what is it? 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' You take the two texts together (they are in the same chapter after all), and you can see that 'He was pierced for our transgressions.' 'The punishment that brought us peace was upon Him.' It all fits together wonderfully.

But I want to look for a moment at Christ becoming a curse for us. It will be helpful to look at Gal. 3:10-14. Who is it who cursed lawbreakers? 'For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"' (Gal. 3:10, quoting Deut. 27:26). Since it is God's law which would be broken, it must be God's curse that was being recited on Mt. Ebal.

But 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.' How can Christ become a curse, since He never broke God's law? Because 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the TREE.' Why does Peter use the word 'tree' [Gk. xulon] instead of 'cross' [Gk. stauron]? Because of Deut. 21:23. 'For He who is hanged [on a tree: vs. 22-23] is accursed of God.' He bore our sins and the curse of them on the wooden cross, and He 'has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. If my iniquity is laid on Christ (which it is), it is no longer on me. If Christ has redeemed me from the curse of the law, then I am no longer cursed by it. He has paid in full the penalty of the law, which is death, and from the curse attached to it by dying on the cursed tree. Penal Substitution. He was condemned; I am no longer condemned (Romans 8:1). He died; I have died to sin. He is risen; I have eternal life in Him. Check out Genesis 3:17-19; Romans 8:18-25; Rev. 22:3-5.

Christ became a curse for us. He bore our sin.

The difference is I do not change the verse

Christ bore our sin which made it possible for us to bear His righteousness.

The penal aspects I would include death that sin produces. The wages of sin is death. Sin begats death. Death is satanic here (the power of Satan).

I do not deny that there are penal and substitution aspects. But "penal substitution" is not two unrelated words, or two aspects.

It is a term (in Christian theology the "penal" identifies the type substitution) like satisfactory substitution, simple substitution, representative substitution, ontological substitution.

So it really does not matter that I see penal aspects. What matters is I deny penal substitution.

 

[37818]

Mark 10:45, For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Romans 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53:6, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, we agree that it is the blood.

Hang on a minute! We didn't agree just now.

Since the shedding of blood was necessary, but not the actual atonement (not making atonement for sins)

So now you agree that the shedding of blood is the actual atonement as per Lev. 17:11?

Yes, we agree that it is the blood.

The reason this gets convoluted some times is so many PSA theorists argue that it is the death.

Rightly so. 'The life of the flesh is in the blood' (good ol' Lev. 17:11 again). When the blood is poured out, it is a sign that the creature (or Christ - John 19:34) is dead.

I believe that the OT imagery (the details provided in God's instruction) and the details in the NT are intentional.

So do I.

So of we look to atonement views we see very different ideas.

PSA viewes Christ's death (Christ taking on our punishment) as the method of forgiveness, as atonement. Our sins are removed from us, placed on Christ, and punished there.

Christis Victor views Christ's death as the sacrifice but forgiveness being in the blood cleansing from unrighteous. The atonement is in the blood applied (like the OT sacrifice model, like the Passover model).

Either way, Christ dies. He dies as the penalty for sin; we don't. Penal Substitution. Tell me; would it have been sufficient for Christ to have shed His blood but remained alive? You used to be very adamant about this.

Christ became a curse for us. He bore our sin.

The difference is I do not change the verse

What??? You have utterly changed the verse! Gal. 3:13. 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.' Christ has redeemed us from the curse by becoming a curse for us.
He becomes a curse for us; we don't. If He becomes a curse and so do we, He has failed. It's Penal Substitution! He becomes a curse for us, we are thereby redeemed from the curse.

Christ bore our sin which made it possible for us to bear His righteousness.

Yep! He bore our sin; we don't bear it. Penal Substitution.

So it really does not matter that I see penal aspects. What matters is I deny penal substitution.

It does matter because you are grievously in error.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Mark 10:45, For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Romans 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53:6, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yes indeed! It really is that simple.

 

[JonC]

What??? You have utterly changed the verse! Gal. 3:13. 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree.' Christ has redeemed us from the curse by becoming a curse for us.
He becomes a curse for us; we don't. If He becomes a curse and so do we, He has failed. It's Penal Substitution! He becomes a curse for us, we are thereby redeemed from the curse.

No. My position that Jesus redemned us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us in accordance with Sctiptute for cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree is NOT changing the verse.

I was stating my belief, not quoting Scripture.

Yes. He became a curse for us, redeeming us from the cruse.

Hang on a minute! We didn't agree just now.

So now you agree that the shedding of blood is the actual atonement as per Lev. 17:11?

No. I NEVER said that. I said that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood but that God gave this to them to make atonement for themselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

There was a distinct difference in the OT between the sacrifice for atonement and the application of the blood which makes atonement via cleansing from sin.

You are all mixed up when it comes to the biblical text. Slow down, read more carefully.

Hang on a minute! We didn't agree just now.

So now you agree that the shedding of blood is the actual atonement as per Lev. 17:11?

Rightly so. 'The life of the flesh is in the blood' (good ol' Lev. 17:11 again). When the blood is poured out, it is a sign that the creature (or Christ - John 19:34) is dead.

So do I.

Either way, Christ dies. He dies as the penalty for sin; we don't. Penal Substitution.

This is where you depart from Scripture.

Chrust dies. You assume it is so that we will not experience the wages of sin (that death produced by sin). I believe that assumption is a complete abandonment of "the faith once given".

Tell me; would it have been sufficient for Christ to have shed His blood but remained alive? You used to be very adamant about this.

Per PSA? Yes, technically PSA does not necessitate Christ's death as long as He experiences punishment for our sins instead of us.

Per Christus Victor? Absolutely not. Christ had to have died in order to free us from the bonds of Satan. He had to die in order to have been "one of us" (it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment).

Christ's death (using the OT sacrifice as an explanation) is the sacrifice (Korbanot) which points to obedience (never appeasing God in the Hebrew religion... although in ANE paganism it pointed to appeasment). But the Atonement itself is by applying the blood of the sacrifice (in the OT it is the priest applying the blood to the altar, in the NT it is Christ's blood that cleanses from all unrighteousness).

So unlike PSA, Christus Victor necessitates Christ's death and His death on a Roman cross. And unlike PSA, I believe that the Life is in the blood, it is Christ's blood that cleanses. It is the blood of the Sacrifice.

Yep! He bore our sin; we don't bear it. Penal Substitution.

Here you change what the Bible says. You read into the Bible your theory.

Yes, Christ bore our sin.
Yes, we now bear His righteousness.
Yes, God lain our iniquity on Him.
Yes, God clothes us in His righteousness.

No, God did not remove our sins and put them on Jesus.
No, God does not remove Christ's righteousness and clothe us with it.

I wish you could see that God's words are complete, perfect, and make sense. But I know that you are literally not able. That is why I do not get aggravated. My role is to point to God's words, not accept His words for you.