Do Guarding Angels exist?

[Cathode]

Most Protestants do refrain from angel worship and praying to angels.

Catholics refrain from Angel worship as well, but we do use them as our servants.

And obviously most reject the superstition that there are angels for specific occupations.

And I genuinely ask them. What do you know about it?

What encounters have they had with the Angels?
None. Angels are just on the page for them, they are talking in ignorance of the reality.

They have never cultivated a relationship with the Angels or even their own guardian Angels. They have lived in complete ignorance of the whole spiritual ecosystem.

 

[JonC]

I haven’t just gauged from this board, but on many forums, and in life.

We often form opinions based on our experiences.

My experience as a Protestant for over 50 years, attending churches in over 8 states and 3 countries, is that you are wrong.

Also, I can attest to the fact that Baptist seminaries certainly do not teach that angels are literally and not encountered in our lives.

But my experiences strictly with Baptist churches (and not Reformed Baptist churches) and two Baptist seminaries.


I am sure you get the same. I know that Catholic doctrine does not teach you to worship angles, or icons. But my experience with Catholics (on boards and in person) has taught me that most do.

 

[JonC]

Catholics refrain from Angel worship as well, but we do use them as our servants.



And I genuinely ask them. What do you know about it?

What encounters have they had with the Angels?
None. Angels are just on the page for them, they are talking in ignorance of the reality.

They have never cultivated a relationship with the Angels or even their own guardian Angels. They have lived in complete ignorance of the whole spiritual ecosystem.

Some Catholics do refrain from angel worship, I agree. Most I have encountered do not (their obedience to God on that issue is merely on a page, not in practice).

I do not doubt that you have encountered people who rationalize anything supernatural that occurs today as natural - to include encountering angels. Just look at those on this board who declare that gifts of God no longer exist.

My answer -just to give you a different experience- is that I know angles exist and are active today. I believe we encountered angles quite often, sometimes unaware and sometimes realizing (often afterwards).

What I know is what God has told me. What I believe is in line with what God told me but not exactly the same weight (opinion vs fact).

I know that we do not use angles as messengers. I believe those who think they do are interacting with demons who draw them away from God.

 

[Cathode]

We often form opinions based on our experiences.

My experience as a Protestant for over 50 years, attending churches in over 8 states and 3 countries, is that you are wrong.

Also, I can attest to the fact that Baptist seminaries certainly do not teach that angels are literally and not encountered in our lives.

But my experiences strictly with Baptist churches (and not Reformed Baptist churches) and two Baptist seminaries.


I am sure you get the same. I know that Catholic doctrine does not teach you to worship angles, or icons. But my experience with Catholics (on boards and in person) has taught me that most do.

If Catholic doctrine does not teach people to worship angels, those who engage in Angel worship are not Catholic.

Not only does Catholic doctrine not teach Angel worship, it condemns it emphatically.

Do you see how ridiculous and illogical your position is?
Do you lump Walter and myself in that category of Catholic Angel worshippers?

What does an Angel worship ceremony look like Jon, I have never seen one Jon?

Claiming Catholics worship angels is false witness, with all the penalties this is awarded.
Every idle word is judged whether written or spoken.

 

[rockytopva]

If Catholic doctrine does not teach people to worship angels, those who engage in Angel worship are not Catholic.

Not only does Catholic doctrine not teach Angel worship, it condemns it emphatically.

Do you see how ridiculous and illogical your position is?
Do you lump Walter and myself in that category of Catholic Angel worshippers?

What does an Angel worship ceremony look like Jon, I have never seen one Jon?

Claiming Catholics worship angels is false witness, with all the penalties this is awarded.
Every idle word is judged whether written or spoken.

There are over 10,000 saints in the Catholic church... And Catholics pray to saints!

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Catholics refrain from Angel worship as well, but we do use them as our servants.



And I genuinely ask them. What do you know about it?

What encounters have they had with the Angels?
None. Angels are just on the page for them, they are talking in ignorance of the reality.

They have never cultivated a relationship with the Angels or even their own guardian Angels. They have lived in complete ignorance of the whole spiritual ecosystem.

I believe that JonC is mixing up angels with the Catholic view of "Patron Saints" of which you can likely find a patron saint that correllates with your particular vocation.

Patron Saints Medals

I will not unnecessarily besmirch the Roman Catholic Church as I was raised in this institution and my mother still remains quite devout but there are a significant number of Catholic groups that are off in the deep end in their beliefs and superstitions!

Case in point, would you agree with this? Why or why not?

 

[Cathode]

There are over 10,000 saints in the Catholic church... And Catholics pray to saints!

That’s right, the Saints do take prayer requests?
That ain’t worship.

 

[Cathode]

I believe that JonC is mixing up angels with the Catholic view of "Patron Saints" of which you can likely find a patron saint that correllates with your particular vocation.

Patron Saints Medals

I will not unnecessarily besmirch the Roman Catholic Church as I was raised in this institution and my mother still remains quite devout but there are a significant number of Catholic groups that are off in the deep end in their beliefs and superstitions!

Case in point, would you agree with this? Why or why not?


View attachment 14290

The problem is people think their salvation is a fait accompli and because of this false doctrine, this gives them impunity to sin without thought of consequence.

If every ignorant idle word is judged harshly, then what of intentionally false, prejudiced or malicious words.

The Rosary is meditation on Jesus life, the entire focus is on Jesus.
Catholics meditate on Jesus life for an hour a day and the scriptural events are read out before each meditation. The words of scripture are the prayers.
The Rosary is about Jesus.

There is no spiritual life without meditation, meditation makes a soul disposed to Grace, and Grace carry’s us into the highest contemplation of Jesus.

Meditation is the outstretched wings of the Eagle, Grace is the thermals that catch those wings and lift the soul from this earth into the Kingdom. This Grace was won for us by Jesus.

The depiction is simplistic not accurate, deceptive to the ignorant and fodder for the prejudiced.

 

[Ben1445]

That’s right, the Saints do take prayer requests?
That ain’t worship.

Do they answer and supply needs brought in prayer?

Philippians 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

It says nothing about praying to saints here.

 

[Cathode]

Do they answer and supply needs brought in prayer?

Philippians 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

It says nothing about praying to saints here.

When we ask others to pray for us, we are making our requests known to God through others.
That’s all through scripture

“And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Saints.” Eph 6:18-20

It’s a concrete biblical not just to individually make requests to God directly but indirectly through others.

Catholics do both as scripture clearly states.

And yes the saints in heaven still pray for all the saints on earth, it’s biblical and it works powerfully.

 

[Cathode]

Do they answer and supply needs brought in prayer?

When you pray for others, are their needs not answered?

Prayer works even when it’s not directly asked of God, but by others requests on our behalf.

“always keep on praying for all the Saints”

This biblical injunction doesn’t end in heaven.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

The problem is people think their salvation is a fait accompli and because of this false doctrine, this gives them impunity to sin without thought of consequence.

Catholic doctrine is the textbook definition of "Synergism" whereby you must cooperate with God in order to obtain a "state of grace" of which no one may have actual assurance of having aside from "special revelation."

The major issue I see with Roman Catholicism is in regards to their view of justification and that they fail to make a distinction between justification and sanctification. This would probably be the main issue here of which we could discuss.

Now, who are you speaking of regarding "Impunity to sin without consequence?" I know there are sloppy "Once Saved Always Saved" Baptists who believe they are "In like Flynn" because once upon a time, they "prayed a prayer!" Is it fair to broad-brush all Baptists as believing such a thing? I would say it is every bit as wrong as my intentionally misrepresenting Roman Catholicism!

But to be fair, there are plenty or Roman Catholics out there who believe they can do whatever they want and everything is just fine so long as they "go to see their priest and say a few "Hail Marys!" I do not thing that such a mindset reflects actual Roman Catholic teaching!

A genuine Christian endeavors to live a life of holiness because their lives have been transformed and thus desire to do so. Sometimes (oftentimes) they fail but they ask forgiveness and continue in their walk of faith.

If every ignorant idle word is judged harshly, then what of intentionally false, prejudiced or malicious words.

Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment (Mt 12:36). We all need to heed Jesus's warning far more seriously than we do!

The Rosary is meditation on Jesus life, the entire focus is on Jesus.
Catholics meditate on Jesus life for an hour a day and the scriptural events are read out before each meditation. The words of scripture are the prayers.
The Rosary is about Jesus.

There are ten "Hail Mary's" to every one "Our Father." I know that Catholics are appealing to Mary to intercede on their behalf - that Jesus is at times angry and unapproachable so they appeal to his mother instead! They justify this by saying it is the same thing as asking you (a real, live person I am interacting with) to pray for me. Several things wrong with this:

First of all, Mary is not "Omniscient" so how is she able to hear the petitions of millions of Roman Catholics who are making their appeal to her? I am trying to stay away from the phrase "Praying to Mary" here as such is often equated with worship of which Catholics insist they are not worshiping Mary and I want to be fair here.

Secondly, we read the scriptures that Jesus is our great High Priest and that we may come boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need (Heb 4:16). Christ is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and is waiting to hear from you! Why not just take him at his word and go to him? Having others pray for you is a good thing and we ought to pray for others and ask them to pray for us but those we are asking are living, able to communicate with you, and since they actually know you, they may specifically pray for you!

The Rosary is primarily connected to Marian devotion.

There is no spiritual life without meditation, meditation makes a soul disposed to Grace, and Grace carry’s us into the highest contemplation of Jesus.

A prayer life is important and we are to meditate on God's word. This is for our benefit, not God's nor should it be a means by which you may try to earn favor with God!

Meditation is the outstretched wings of the Eagle, Grace is the thermals that catch those wings and lift the soul from this earth into the Kingdom. This Grace was won for us by Jesus.

Sometimes I feel this way and it is wonderful to have such experiences but God's grace is far greater during times of trials and distress!

The depiction is simplistic not accurate, deceptive to the ignorant and fodder for the prejudiced.

This was something that a friend posted on her Facebook page. She is a very devout Catholic and sincerely believes this to be the truth! Most others responding to this meme were also saying to the effect that "This is how I'm going to make it to heaven!" This is not only erroneous but quite blasphemous! I do not want to use such as "fodder" to ridicule Catholics! I am truly worried about their being deceived by such false teachings! If such is contrary to Catholic teaching, why are the Catholic authorities not speaking out about such things?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

And yes the saints in heaven still pray for all the saints on earth, it’s biblical and it works powerfully.

I do not doubt that there are some among the "great cloud of witnesses" who may be observing and possibly praying for me. I simply do not know who they are nor am I able to be in communication with them. The Bible explicitly prohibits me from trying to make contact with the dead so I will wait until I see them in heaven to thank them!

 

[Cathode]

I do not doubt that there are some among the "great cloud of witnesses" who may be observing and possibly praying for me. I simply do not know who they are nor am I able to be in communication with them. The Bible explicitly prohibits me from trying to make contact with the dead so I will wait until I see them in heaven to thank them!

The Bible explicitly prohibits necromancy or conjuring the dead to gain illicit knowledge, not prayer requests of the living saints of heaven who are at the Throne of Grace.

 

[Ben1445]

When you pray for others, are their needs not answered?

I’m not dead.

Prayer works even when it’s not directly asked of God, but by others requests on our behalf.

To what purpose?

“always keep on praying for all the Saints”

The living ones. There is nothing to be done for the dead ones.

Well you probably buy the church off to get them out of purgatory, but that is not a real place. It is a money making scheme.

This biblical injunction doesn’t end in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


But you go on and keep requesting of people who don’t know anything because they are dead. It doesn’t make any sense. You have great faith in the deceased. It would be far better to have faith in the risen Saviour and the Father than those who have yet to see a resurrection.

 

[Cathode]

Sometimes I feel this way and it is wonderful to have such experiences but God's grace is far greater during times of trials and distress!

This was something that a friend posted on her Facebook page. She is a very devout Catholic and sincerely believes this to be the truth! Most others responding to this meme were also saying to the effect that "This is how I'm going to make it to heaven!" This is not only erroneous but quite blasphemous! I do not want to use such as "fodder" to ridicule Catholics! I am truly worried about their being deceived by such false teachings! If such is contrary to Catholic teaching, why are the Catholic authorities not speaking out about such things?

The spiritual life isn’t about the “ feels “, it’s not about curiosity and experiences to be sort out like many who indulge in eastern or occult practices.

The spiritual life is exquisite in the joys but also the agonies, it is real living and awareness, more real than the temporal life.

The point is to be closer to God, in fact I tell people to ignore much of the “experiences” and focus on Jesus, these “ experiences “ are not the object of the spiritual life, and in fact can be a distraction from the true object.

Experiences will happen but do not make them the object and goal, Jesus is the objective of our contemplation.

Do not enter the spiritual without Jesus, Jesus life is our meditation in the rosary, and Grace takes us into contemplation.

Everyday we contemplate Jesus at the Incarnation through to His Passion Resurrection and Ascension into heaven in the Holy Rosary.

Entering inner life can be like entering Narnia as initial consolation but real growth happens by desolation to continue without any consolations or any “feelings” that God even loves you.
You “ feel “ abandoned by God completely, all attempts at prayer leave you feeling worse and everything seems pointless.

This is an important stage to pass through for our true spiritual maturity. It weeds out the serious from the merely curious seeking “ experiences “ like a druggy, they don’t really want a deep relationship with God.

As to the depiction, I don’t think the Vatican has team reviewing all childish cartoonic face book posts for orthodoxy. Nor should Protestants expect the accurate theological position to be expressed by cartoon memes and depictions. I do see some tongue in cheek humour here as well, it’s not posted for the uptight to mount their high horse and gallop a lather in high dudgeon.
I really don’t think the Vatican will send Silas the albino monk assassin to deal with a cartoon.
Maybe allow some humour and cut some Grace with things like this, not build a federal case on it.

 

[Cathode]

I’m not dead.


To what purpose?


The living ones. There is nothing to be done for the dead ones.

Well you probably buy the church off to get them out of purgatory, but that is not a real place. It is a money making scheme.


Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


But you go on and keep requesting of people who don’t know anything because they are dead. It doesn’t make any sense. You have great faith in the deceased. It would be far better to have faith in the risen Saviour and the Father than those who have yet to see a resurrection.

Ecclesiastes is like Job as dialogue, but it is giving the temporal human “under the sun “ perspective from all being “vanity”.

It’s not a doctrinal pronouncement people’s state after death.

But also from the spiritual perspective, this is also before the Redemption when souls were in prison. Until.

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison”

Also God is the God of the Living, not the Dead.

 

[Cathode]

I’m not dead.

Neither are the saints in Heaven. God is the God of the Living, not the dead.

To what purpose?

To be biblical for starters.

The living ones. There is nothing to be done for the dead ones.

Adding your own words, great.

 

[Cathode]

Catholic doctrine is the textbook definition of "Synergism" whereby you must cooperate with God in order to obtain a "state of grace" of which no one may have actual assurance of having aside from "special revelation."

The major issue I see with Roman Catholicism is in regards to their view of justification and that they fail to make a distinction between justification and sanctification. This would probably be the main issue here of which we could discuss.

The only assurance needed is the Apostolic judgment at Confession, Absolution. The power to forgive sin was given to the Apostles and their successors by Christ Himself.
The Apostolic Judgement is God breathed.

And no we are not preprogrammed automatons, God wanted beings with total freedom to choose. There is the choice of life and death is set before us. The angels were also given a choice.

There are ten "Hail Mary's" to every one "Our Father." I know that Catholics are appealing to Mary to intercede on their behalf - that Jesus is at times angry and unapproachable so they appeal to his mother instead! They justify this by saying it is the same thing as asking you (a real, live person I am interacting with) to pray for me. Several things wrong with this:

First of all, Mary is not "Omniscient" so how is she able to hear the petitions of millions of Roman Catholics who are making their appeal to her? I am trying to stay away from the phrase "Praying to Mary" here as such is often equated with worship of which Catholics insist they are not worshiping Mary and I want to be fair here.

John wasn’t Omniscient or omnipresent yet.

“Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” Revelation 5:13

Secondly, we read the scriptures that Jesus is our great High Priest and that we may come boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need (Heb 4:16). Christ is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and is waiting to hear from you! Why not just take him at his word and go to him? Having others pray for you is a good thing and we ought to pray for others and ask them to pray for us but those we are asking are living, able to communicate with you, and since they actually know you, they may specifically pray for you!

The Rosary is primarily connected to Marian devotion.

“ Marian devotion “ is total devotion to Jesus, we simply participate in her perfect devotion to Christ.

It was Her perfect and sinless unity with The Holy Spirit that resulted in the Incarnation of God.
Jesus took His unblemished flesh of Mary’s sinless flesh.

No one ever was or ever will be more devoted, dedicated or united to Christ than Mary.

Mary was there from Christs conception, public life, through His passion at the foot of the Cross to His Resurrection.
She is the perfect model of total devotion to Christ.

 

[Ben1445]

Ecclesiastes is like Job as dialogue, but it is giving the temporal human “under the sun “ perspective from all being “vanity”.

It’s not a doctrinal pronouncement people’s state after death.

But also from the spiritual perspective, this is also before the Redemption when souls were in prison. Until.

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison”

Also God is the God of the Living, not the Dead.

So ask the God of the living. He said ask Him. You misread Scripture into saying pray to saints.