Unbelief vs Belief ?

[Alan Dale Gross]

You’re defining belief as an instantaneous mental flip, as if faith were the ability to conjure conviction out of thin air. That is not what belief is. Scripture presents belief as assent to truth when confronted with evidence, conviction, and the illumination of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit Brings Eternal Life to the lost, blind, hopeless, sin-cursed, hater of God, under the Preaching of The Gospel of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, according to all The Old Testament and New Testament writers, including Jesus, of course.

The Holy Spirit Illumines and Quickens the Spiritually dead soul by Enabling them in The New Spiritual Birth from Above to become Partakers of the Divine Nature and Spiritually Discern the evidence in the Message of the Gospel from God's Word. Once that Divine Nature is Imparted into the now Born Again saint's soul, that former lover of evil has been Granted the Ability to "take sides with God against themselves" and agree that their sins have Offended the Holy God of The Universe and to then Repent under that Holy Spirit Wrought Conviction, as an Eternal Law-Breaker.

At the same time the now saved soul that HAS HAD THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEAD THEM TO REPENTANCE of their sins, are Given the Gift of Faith. And since they now have the Divine Nature to communicate with God, Who is Spirit, in the Spirit Realm, they willfully, Spiritually by the Power of God's Will, place their Faith and Trust in Jesus as their Savior, the Forgiver and Safe-Keeper of their soul (whereas before they were saved, it was impossible by being "not of him that willeth") .

That sinner has become willing in the Day of God's Power.

"Thy people shall be willing in the Day of Thy Power", Psalm 110:3a.

"...a New Heart Will I Give you and a New Spirit Will I Put within you," Ezekiel 36:26,27.

"...Of His Own Will Beget He us with the Word of Truth...", James 1:18.

No one can “choose” to believe in leprechauns because there is no truth to respond to. But when the Spirit illuminates the gospel, a man can respond in faith.

True, See above.

The Bible repeatedly commands people to:

Believe (John 3:16)
Repent (Acts 17:30)
Receive (John 1:12)
Come (Matthew 11:28)
Choose (Joshua 24:15)

Not everyone has been Brought to Spiritually discern the Spiritually Reality that God Commands the lost sinner, who has no ability to Believe, Repent, Receive, Come, or Choose, to Repent and Believe the Gospel and that it is God Who Gets the Glory when He Brings the lost sinner under the teaching and preaching and Influence of the Holy Spirit, and by the Eternal Word of God and the Gospel, He has Mercy on whom He Will have Mercy.

"How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the Kingdom of God!

25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.

26 "And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?

27 "And He said, The things which are impossible with men are Possible with God." Luke 18:24b-26.

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” (Joshua 24:15)

Joshua 24:14
"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;
whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Joshua's Command regarding saved souls serving God, or choosing to serve another false god, has no association to anything about Salvation, other than only those who are saved can "fear God" and "serve Him" in a way that God Accepts their Worship.

“I have set before you life and death… therefore choose life.” (Deut. 30:19)

17 "But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not Hear, but shalt be drawn away,
and worship other gods, and serve them;

Verse 18 speaks of the possibility "that ye shall surely perish, meaning that they would die
and "that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land", meaning to not prolong the days of their lives.

18 "I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Verse 19 speaks of their lives and whether or not they may die, "that I have set before you life and death",

Commanding them to choose to live, rather than to die, by being cursed, "blessing and cursing: therefore choose life",

They are encouraged to choose to live for them and their seed, "that both thou and thy seed may live:"

19 "I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death,
blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Verse 20 speaks of their being given the Promise that "He is thy life, and the length of thy days:

That they may live and not die, to dwell in the land "that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers", etc.

20 "That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey His Voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them," Deuteronomy 30:17-20.

Nothing there remotely associated with Eternal Life, but for them to choose to live their natural life and not die.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

“Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways.” (Ezek. 33:11)

You may remember Ezekiel in 37:4 was Commanded to preach to a valley full of dry bones and he did.

"O YE DRY BONES, HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD".

Then, Ezekiel tells us, 7 "So I Prophesied as I was Commanded: and as I Prophesied, there was a noise,
and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 "And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above:
but there was no breath in them.

9 "Then said He unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, Prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,
Thus Saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 "So I Prophesied as He Commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."

When God Sovereignly Commands His servants to "preach the Gospel to every nation" it is because He is going to Use the instrumentality of that preaching of the Gospel, for the Holy Spirit to Bare Witness with it to save souls,

"according to the Good Pleasure of His Will"

"To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace",

and "according to His Good Pleasure which He hath Purposed in Himself",

of whom it is written, "He hath Chosen us in Him before the Foundation of the World,
that we should be Holy and without blame before Him in Love:

5; "Having Predestinated us unto the Adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the Good Pleasure of His Will,

GOD "hath Made us Accepted in the Beloved".

6; "To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, wherein He hath Made us Accepted in the Beloved.

7 "In whom we have Redemption through His Blood, the Forgiveness of sins, according to the Riches of His Grace;

GOD "hath Abounded toward us in all Wisdom and Prudence."

8 "Wherein He hath Abounded toward us in all Wisdom and Prudence;

However, GOD has not Made Known "THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL", to everyone.

9 "Having Made Known unto us the Mystery of His Will,
according to His Good Pleasure which He hath Purposed in Himself:"

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

“Come unto me.” (Matt. 11:28)

Jesus is Speaking to "all ye that labor and are heavy laden," "NOT meaning, those who are laboring in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with iniquity, and insensible of it: these are not weary of sin, nor burdened with it; nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls; but such who groan, being burdened with the guilt of sin upon their consciences, and are pressed down with the unsupportable yoke of the law, and the load of human traditions; and have been labouring till they are weary, in order to obtain peace of conscience, and rest for their souls, by the observance of these things, but in vain.

Those under Conviction already, from breaking the Universal Laws of God and having been shown that in their conscience:

"These are encouraged to come to Him, lay down their burdens at His feet, look to, and lay hold by Faith on His Person, Blood, Righteousness, and Sacrifice; when they should enjoy that True Spiritual Consolation, which could never be attained to by the works of the Law." Matthew 11 Gill's Exposition

Matthew 11:28
"Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I Will Give you rest."



IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL WANT TO ACCUSE jESUS OF FORCING HIS BELIEFS INTO A SYSTEM.

Matthew 11:27
"All things are Delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man Knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither Knoweth any man the Father, Save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will Reveal Him."

THAT WORD "WHOMSOEVER" IN MATTHEW IS SIMILAR TO "WHOSOEVER", IN JOHN 3, ISN'T IT?

Like saying, "For God so Loved the World that" WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL THE FATHER "believeth in Him shall never perish, but have Everlasting Life". Right? Is there supposed to be some difference in that teaching in both places?

“Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” (John 5:40)

JESUS KNOWS HIS BIBLE.

Along with their Mind and Heart, the lost man's will is infinitely depraved
and entirely alienated from Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

"His Will The unbeliever’s inability to respond to the Gospel is most overtly seen in the depravity of his will—that faculty by which a man chooses or makes decisions. Simply stated, his will is enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:17, 20; John 8:34).

"The unbeliever does not submit to God’s law, for he is "not even able to do so; and [he] cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).

"He is unable to choose to do anything that is truly good (Rom. 3:12), for his only capacity is to do evil.

"The depravity of the unbeliever’s will flows from the evil of his heart (Mark 7:2123).

"Not only is his heart full of evil, but he is also enslaved to his various lusts and pleasures (Titus 3:3).

"Just as an apple tree can produce nothing but apples, a man with an evil heart can produce nothing but evil (Matt. 7:16-18).

"He cannot produce what is good, not even a positive response to the Gospel. "There is none who seeks for God" (Rom. 3:11).

"If all this is true, how can an unbeliever choose Christ? How can he respond to the gospel?

"He cannot, for just as a leopard cannot change his spots nor a man the color of his skin, neither can a man change—
or even improve upon—the condition of his heart (Jer. 13:23).

"His will is enslaved to the evil desires of his heart.

"He is not able to conjure up enough goodness within himself to choose Christ, for there is none there (Rom. 3:12).

"He is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) and has no more ability to respond Spiritually
than a corpse has to respond physically.

"The unbeliever cannot understand or accept the Gospel, for it is foolishness to him;
how then can he respond to it and believe in Christ as his Savior?

"Every intent of his heart is evil, and he seeks not after God;
how then can he turn to Christ for salvation and embrace Him as his righteousness?

"He is enslaved to sin; how then can he turn from his wickedness to Christ and bow before Him as Lord?

"The unbeliever is not able to please God, obey God, or do anything at all that is good;
how then can he respond to God’s command to believe?

"There is no fear of God before his eyes; how then can he humble himself before God and trust in Him for salvation?

"He hates God, loves sin, and is unwilling and undesirous of coming to Christ; how then can he repent and do so?

"He is Spiritually blind; how then can he make himself see?

"He is spiritually dead; how then can he make himself live?

"In light of these Truths, the evangelist finds himself left with the desperate question that the disciples themselves asked Jesus:

"Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26)

"In other words, if the only way to be saved is to turn to Christ, but unbelievers are unable to turn to Christ,
who then can be saved?

"What, if anything, can the evangelist do to bring people to the Savior?

"Isn’t he being asked to communicate a message to which his audience has no ability to respond?

This is the evangelist’s dilemma."

From: Evangelism 101: Laying the Foundation By Matt Waymeyer

The answer to that dilemma presented in the Old and New Testament is answered in the book of Acts where we learn that IT IS GOD WHO MUST OPEN THE HEART OF THE LOST SINNER, BY THE NEW BIRTH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT UNDER THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

“Be ye reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:20)

The gospel call is meaningless

The Master’s Instruments:

"Since salvation is solely the work of our heart-opening God, where does that leave man?

"Does the believer assume any role whatsoever in the salvation of the lost?

"In response to this question, some have insisted that the Christian must passively surrender to the Sovereignty of God and simply sit back and wait for God to zap whomever He Pleases. What such individuals fail to realize, however, is that just as a surgeon uses special instruments to perform a delicate surgery, so also does God use instruments of His Choice to Grant New Life to a sinner.

"The first instrument employed by the Master Surgeon is a Divine instrument, namely the Word of God.

"James writes, "In the exercise of His Will He brought us forth by the word of Truth" (James 1:18). Notice that James first states that his readers were "brought forth"—or born again—in the exercise of God’s Will. In other words, it was the Sovereign Purpose of the Lord that they be Made Alive in Christ.

"And how was it that He Brought them Forth in keeping with His Sovereign Will? They were Brought Forth, James writes, "by the word of Truth." James says the instrument or the means by which God Granted them New Life was the Message of the Gospel.

"The Apostle Peter reminds his readers of this Truth in similar fashion, writing, "you have been Born Again…through the Living and Abiding Word of God…which was preached to you" (1 Pet 1:23, 25). Again, Scripture states clearly that God has caused His children to be Born Again through—or by means of—His word.

" This same teaching is found in Paul’s epistles as well: The apostle reminds Timothy that Scripture is "able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation" (2 Tim. 3:15); he writes to the church at Rome that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17); he tells the Ephesian believers that Jesus has cleansed the church "by the washing of water with the word" (Eph. 5:26); and he assures the Romans that the Gospel is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; cf. 1 Cor. 1:18).

"At this point some may object and say that the Gospel is offensive to unbelievers, and that another means must be used in seeking their salvation. After all, it’s so exclusive and intolerant, and not at all what people today are looking for. Preaching the pure, unadulterated gospel simply will not be effective.

"The example of the Apostle Paul, however, points in the opposite direction: "For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom," the apostle writes, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness…" (1 Cor. 1:22-23). In other words, Paul remained committed to the Divine Message regardless of its offense, for he knew that it was "to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (v. 24).

"The bottom line is that any doubts regarding the Gospel as the God-Ordained means through which He saves sinners may be sufficiently put to rest with the simple and wonderful Truth that
"God was Well-Pleased through the foolishness of the Message preached to save those who believe" (1 Cor. 1:21).

"The second of the Master’s instruments is not a divine instrument, but rather a human one, for the Gospel Message needs a messenger. This simple truth can be seen clearly in Paul’s epistle to Rome, where he writes,
"How shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14)

"Paul’s point here is not difficult to grasp—sinners cannot believe in the One of whom they have not heard, and they cannot hear of Him without someone preaching to them. In other words, the preaching of the Gospel is indispensable to the salvation of the lost.

"God, in His Infinite Wisdom, was Pleased to determine that sinners be saved through a Message brought to them by human messengers (i.e. "the message preached" in 1 Cor. 1:21). It is for this reason that the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us;
we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

"Therefore, while the evangelist is not a divine instrument per se, he is a Divinely Ordained Instrument, and one that plays a vital role in God’s Plan to save His people.

"Most simply stated, then, evangelism consists of the human messenger proclaiming the Divine Message to depraved sinners.

"God is indeed the One Who saves, but the Master Utilizes instruments of His Choice to Carry Out His Work. And these instruments—both the Message and the messenger—play an indispensable role in the Work whereby our Life-Giving God does what no human surgeon could ever hope to accomplish."

From: Evangelism 101: Laying the Foundation by Matt Waymeyer

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

The Master’s Instruments:

"Since salvation is solely the work of our heart-opening God, where does that leave man?

"Does the believer assume any role whatsoever in the salvation of the lost?

"In response to this question, some have insisted that the Christian must passively surrender to the Sovereignty of God and simply sit back and wait for God to zap whomever He Pleases. What such individuals fail to realize, however, is that just as a surgeon uses special instruments to perform a delicate surgery, so also does God use instruments of His Choice to Grant New Life to a sinner.

"The first instrument employed by the Master Surgeon is a Divine instrument, namely the Word of God.

"James writes, "In the exercise of His Will He brought us forth by the word of Truth" (James 1:18). Notice that James first states that his readers were "brought forth"—or born again—in the exercise of God’s Will. In other words, it was the Sovereign Purpose of the Lord that they be Made Alive in Christ.

"And how was it that He Brought them Forth in keeping with His Sovereign Will? They were Brought Forth, James writes, "by the word of Truth." James says the instrument or the means by which God Granted them New Life was the Message of the Gospel.

"The Apostle Peter reminds his readers of this Truth in similar fashion, writing, "you have been Born Again…through the Living and Abiding Word of God…which was preached to you" (1 Pet 1:23, 25). Again, Scripture states clearly that God has caused His children to be Born Again through—or by means of—His word.

" This same teaching is found in Paul’s epistles as well: The apostle reminds Timothy that Scripture is "able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation" (2 Tim. 3:15); he writes to the church at Rome that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17); he tells the Ephesian believers that Jesus has cleansed the church "by the washing of water with the word" (Eph. 5:26); and he assures the Romans that the Gospel is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; cf. 1 Cor. 1:18).

"At this point some may object and say that the Gospel is offensive to unbelievers, and that another means must be used in seeking their salvation. After all, it’s so exclusive and intolerant, and not at all what people today are looking for. Preaching the pure, unadulterated gospel simply will not be effective.

"The example of the Apostle Paul, however, points in the opposite direction: "For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom," the apostle writes, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness…" (1 Cor. 1:22-23). In other words, Paul remained committed to the Divine Message regardless of its offense, for he knew that it was "to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (v. 24).

"The bottom line is that any doubts regarding the Gospel as the God-Ordained means through which He saves sinners may be sufficiently put to rest with the simple and wonderful Truth that
"God was Well-Pleased through the foolishness of the Message preached to save those who believe" (1 Cor. 1:21).

"The second of the Master’s instruments is not a divine instrument, but rather a human one, for the Gospel Message needs a messenger. This simple truth can be seen clearly in Paul’s epistle to Rome, where he writes,
"How shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14)

"Paul’s point here is not difficult to grasp—sinners cannot believe in the One of whom they have not heard, and they cannot hear of Him without someone preaching to them. In other words, the preaching of the Gospel is indispensable to the salvation of the lost.

"God, in His Infinite Wisdom, was Pleased to determine that sinners be saved through a Message brought to them by human messengers (i.e. "the message preached" in 1 Cor. 1:21). It is for this reason that the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us;
we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

"Therefore, while the evangelist is not a divine instrument per se, he is a Divinely Ordained Instrument, and one that plays a vital role in God’s Plan to save His people.

"Most simply stated, then, evangelism consists of the human messenger proclaiming the Divine Message to depraved sinners.

"God is indeed the One Who saves, but the Master Utilizes instruments of His Choice to Carry Out His Work. And these instruments—both the Message and the messenger—play an indispensable role in the Work whereby our Life-Giving God does what no human surgeon could ever hope to accomplish."

From: Evangelism 101: Laying the Foundation by Matt Waymeyer

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR.

Alan, I’m not arguing against the Spirit’s work in regeneration. I’m pointing out that Scripture commands belief, repentance, coming, receiving, and turning, and commands are addressed to the person, not to their nature. My point was simply that belief is the mind’s assent to truth when confronted with the gospel. If you believe these passages mean something different, please show it from the text itself rather than from theological summaries.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

1; "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2; "And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way,
whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3; "And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from Heaven:

4; "And he fell to the Earth, and heard a Voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?

5; "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6; "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7; "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8; "And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man:
but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus."

9; "And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink."

When did Saul/Paul the unbeliever become the believer?

Saul's Conversion from a persecutor of Christians to a devoted Apostle underscores the theme of Redemption and the possibility of Spiritual change, from the Natural lost, fleshly Nature, to the Divine Nature having the Spirit of God Implanted into him in the New Birth from Above, purely and strictly through Divine Intervention. (We don't exactly see Saul jumping up off his horse to tell the Lord, "You better move over, I'm coming to Heaven whether you like it or not". Jesus Came where HE WAS TO MIRACULOUSLY SAVE SAUL'S SOUL).

When exactly were his eyes opened unto belief?

Interestingly enough, the Glory of the Light Paul said he couldn't look upon that blinded him physically was that Spiritual Light of the World, and the One Who Saved Paul's soul that day, Jesus, his Savior. Just as it says in Psalm 27:1 where it declares, "The LORD is my Light and my Salvation—whom shall I fear?" THAT OLD TESTAMENT imagery set the stage for the New Testament Revelation of Jesus as the Ultimate Fulfillment of this Divine Light.

What healed his blindness?

Paul's physical blindness was healed in Damascus:

Acts 22:11; "And when I could not see for the glory of that light,
being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12; "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13 "Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him."

Would like to ask concerning his repentance but do not know how.

Repentance and Faith are Two Divine Twin Doctrines, which always take place together. Where only one may be mentioned, the other is implied. You can't have Faith and then sometime later 'be Brought to Repentance to then turn from having Belief and Faith', etc.

"Repentance and Faith are inseparable synchronous Graces. We have reference here, of course, to that Repentance (signified by "metanoeo" and "metnaoia") which is unto Salvation, and not to the kind (signified by "metamelomai") that Judas experienced.

"That Repentance and Faith are synchronous or simultaneous is evident from the fact that when a man is Quickened into Life there can be no lapse of time before he Repents, nor can there be any before he Believes. Otherwise we would have the New Nature in rebellion against God and in unbelief. Thus there can be no chronological* order in Repentance and Faith.

"Another thing which shows the inseparableness of Repentance and Faith is the fact that the Scripture often mentions only one of them as the means of Salvation. Because of this fact we must think of each one, when used alone, as comprehending the other.

"In Repentance and Faith, as we have already pointed out in another chapter, the will is brought to choose Righteousness as an ultimate end."

From: SIMMONS- REPENTANCE AND FAITH

A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Alphabetical Table of Contents

* And while there is no order to them with regard to time (chronologically), we generally think of them as the Bible does as logically taking place, as "Repentance toward God (in understanding our guilt of sin) and Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ" (where we have turned from sin in Repentance TO JESUS by Faith, Trust, and Belief).​

Maybe; When did he repent and or become repentant?

Although Repentance and Faith always come to the Newly Born Again soul together, we are not told exactly when these happened in the Salvation of Paul, but we do know that Saul must have been affected by his understanding of the Law that he had been exposed to, when we see where Paul said,
"the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be Justified by Faith", in Galtians 3:22.

21; "Is the Law then against the Promises of God? God forbid:
for if there had been a Law given which could have given Life, verily Righteousness should have been by the Law.

The Promise by Faith of Jesus Christ is a Gift Given to them that believe:

22; "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
that the Promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be Given to them that believe.

23; "But before Faith came, we were kept under the Law, shut up unto the Faith which should afterwards be Revealed.

24 "Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be Justified by Faith.

25; "But after that Faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Paul would have obviously had to have been mortified WITH GUILT to hear the Voice of the Lord saying to him,
"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me? Paul was "trembling and astonished".

And The Lord Himself Brought Paul Repentance and Faith in Jesus' Own Blood.

Qualifying him to be washed by the blood of Jesus?

When the Holy Spirit Accompanies the preaching of the Gospel and Brings Salvation into the soul of the lost person, to Grant them Repentance and Faith, in the New Birth, they are Pardoned of their sins by the Imputation of Jesus' Righteous Life into their soul when they are Washed by the Blood of Jesus, all at the same time.

When God then Looks upon their Saved soul, they have the Righteousness of Jesus Christ Accredited to their life and soul, where God Sees NO SIN.

GOD THEN, THEREFORE, DECLARES THEM JUSTIFIED, BY FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

fatalism.

"ELECTION DOES NOT INVOLVE FATALISM."

"Those who cannot see the difference between Election and fatalism need to consult a good dictionary.

"Fate is Heathen, an irresistible, irrational power determining all events with no manifest connection with reason or righteousness."

"Foreordination and Predestination are Christian, denoting the rational and Righteous Order or Decree of the Supreme and All-Wise God."

"A. R. McGehee once said the following concerning the difference between fatalism and Predestination: "Fatalism is that theory of life which teaches that all Destiny is fixed from the beginning, and that intermediate circumstances and acts do not affect that fixed Destiny. The end in view, whether good or bad, is reached by sheer fiat or caprice, and little account is taken of Morality or Purpose, with meager emphasis on either Divine or human personality. It is a philosophy and not a religion.
"In contrast, Determinism holds that the End or Destiny in view is Effected by a combination of all preceding acts and circumstances.

"Election, on the other hand, is Moral and personal and Purposeful, and events are Divinely Ordered and Controlled to Produce certain Moral Values."

"But the Arminian must either deny the Foreknowledge of God or shut himself up to blank fatalism. If God Foreknew the Final Destiny of every man, then that Destiny was Settled and Fixed in Eternity. By what then was it fixed?

"Arminians have on the one hand 'a vacant throne', and on the other 'a fixed future'.

"There are just two ways out for them. They can either pursue their infidelity toward its logical terminus and deny the Foreknowledge of God, or they can acknowledge fate as the determiner of human events.

"Let every Arminian make his choice and then write us about it."

"We have said there are but two ways out for the Arminian. That is true so long as he remains an Arminian. But there is, after all, a way out of the dilemma that is safe and happy. That way is to acknowledge the Truth of God's Absolute Sovereignty. We wish every Arminian could know the comfort and joy that an acceptance of that Truth brings."

SIMMONS- THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Jesus is Speaking to "all ye that labor and are heavy laden," "NOT meaning, those who are laboring in the service of sin and Satan, are laden with iniquity, and insensible of it: these are not weary of sin, nor burdened with it; nor do they want or desire any rest for their souls; but such who groan, being burdened with the guilt of sin upon their consciences, and are pressed down with the unsupportable yoke of the law, and the load of human traditions; and have been labouring till they are weary, in order to obtain peace of conscience, and rest for their souls, by the observance of these things, but in vain.

Those under Conviction already, from breaking the Universal Laws of God and having been shown that in their conscience:

"These are encouraged to come to Him, lay down their burdens at His feet, look to, and lay hold by Faith on His Person, Blood, Righteousness, and Sacrifice; when they should enjoy that True Spiritual Consolation, which could never be attained to by the works of the Law." Matthew 11 Gill's Exposition

Matthew 11:28
"Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I Will Give you rest."



IN THE PREVIOUS VERSE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL WANT TO ACCUSE jESUS OF FORCING HIS BELIEFS INTO A SYSTEM.

Matthew 11:27
"All things are Delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man Knoweth the Son, but the Father;
neither Knoweth any man the Father, Save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will Reveal Him."

THAT WORD "WHOMSOEVER" IN MATTHEW IS SIMILAR TO "WHOSOEVER", IN JOHN 3, ISN'T IT?

Like saying, "For God so Loved the World that" WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL THE FATHER "believeth in Him shall never perish, but have Everlasting Life". Right? Is there supposed to be some difference in that teaching in both places?


JESUS KNOWS HIS BIBLE.

Along with their Mind and Heart, the lost man's will is infinitely depraved
and entirely alienated from Eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

"His Will The unbeliever’s inability to respond to the Gospel is most overtly seen in the depravity of his will—that faculty by which a man chooses or makes decisions. Simply stated, his will is enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:17, 20; John 8:34).

"The unbeliever does not submit to God’s law, for he is "not even able to do so; and [he] cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).

"He is unable to choose to do anything that is truly good (Rom. 3:12), for his only capacity is to do evil.

"The depravity of the unbeliever’s will flows from the evil of his heart (Mark 7:2123).

"Not only is his heart full of evil, but he is also enslaved to his various lusts and pleasures (Titus 3:3).

"Just as an apple tree can produce nothing but apples, a man with an evil heart can produce nothing but evil (Matt. 7:16-18).

"He cannot produce what is good, not even a positive response to the Gospel. "There is none who seeks for God" (Rom. 3:11).

"If all this is true, how can an unbeliever choose Christ? How can he respond to the gospel?

"He cannot, for just as a leopard cannot change his spots nor a man the color of his skin, neither can a man change—
or even improve upon—the condition of his heart (Jer. 13:23).

"His will is enslaved to the evil desires of his heart.

"He is not able to conjure up enough goodness within himself to choose Christ, for there is none there (Rom. 3:12).

"He is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) and has no more ability to respond Spiritually
than a corpse has to respond physically.

"The unbeliever cannot understand or accept the Gospel, for it is foolishness to him;
how then can he respond to it and believe in Christ as his Savior?

"Every intent of his heart is evil, and he seeks not after God;
how then can he turn to Christ for salvation and embrace Him as his righteousness?

"He is enslaved to sin; how then can he turn from his wickedness to Christ and bow before Him as Lord?

"The unbeliever is not able to please God, obey God, or do anything at all that is good;
how then can he respond to God’s command to believe?

"There is no fear of God before his eyes; how then can he humble himself before God and trust in Him for salvation?

"He hates God, loves sin, and is unwilling and undesirous of coming to Christ; how then can he repent and do so?

"He is Spiritually blind; how then can he make himself see?

"He is spiritually dead; how then can he make himself live?

"In light of these Truths, the evangelist finds himself left with the desperate question that the disciples themselves asked Jesus:

"Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26)

"In other words, if the only way to be saved is to turn to Christ, but unbelievers are unable to turn to Christ,
who then can be saved?

"What, if anything, can the evangelist do to bring people to the Savior?

"Isn’t he being asked to communicate a message to which his audience has no ability to respond?

This is the evangelist’s dilemma."

From: Evangelism 101: Laying the Foundation By Matt Waymeyer

The answer to that dilemma presented in the Old and New Testament is answered in the book of Acts where we learn that IT IS GOD WHO MUST OPEN THE HEART OF THE LOST SINNER, BY THE NEW BIRTH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT UNDER THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL.

Simmons is not Scripture. My concern is simply that we let the text itself define repentance and faith rather than importing systematic categories like “synchronous graces” or “twin doctrines.” If you believe a passage teaches these constructs, please show it from the text itself. From my perspective, Calvinist arguments often lean so heavily on systematic theology, lexical scaffolding, and secondary sources that the reliance becomes so thick Scripture itself gets reduced to a footnote.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

It denies the very thing Scripture affirms, that man is a genuine moral agent who can respond to the truth when confronted with it.

"ELECTION IS PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH THE FREE AGENCY OF MAN"

"For the definition and general discussion of Free Agency see Chapter XIX.

"The Bible Doctrine of Election represents man, in his Natural condition, as completely enslaved by sin, with no ability in Spiritual things. It also represents God as taking the initiative in Conversion by Quickening the dead sinner into Life logically prior to his Repentance and Faith. But for proof that this does not involve a conflict between Free Agency and Election see in Chapter XIX the discussion under * "Free Agency of the Natural Man" and ** "Free Agency and Conversion."

"MAN AS MUCH A FREE AGENT AS GOD."

"We have noted that A. H. Strong says: "Free Agency is the power of self-determination." Others define it as the power one has to act according to his choice, to do as he pleases.

"We have seen that Free Agency does not imply ability to transcend oneself and to act contrary to one's character.

"It does not exclude determination to either good or bad. It does exclude compulsion and restraint from outside of ones Nature, and it also just as surely excludes mere caprice and arbitrariness.

"What more than this can be affirmed of God? What less can be affirmed of man?

"God is self-determined.

"So is man, and at all times. God always Acts according to His Choice; He does as He Pleases. (Psa. 135:6; Isa. 46:10.)

"So also does man.

"God cannot transcend Himself and Act contrary to His Character. (We know this because of God's Immutability, for a discussion of which see chapter on "The Nature and Attributes of God.")

"Neither can man.

"God is ever Determined to Good.

"Natural man is ever determined to that which is Spiritually evil.

"A regenerated man is determined, in the main, to that which is good.
When he commits evil, he is, for the moment determined to evil.

"The will of God is never compelled or restrained by anything outside His Own Nature.

"The same is true of man.

"God never acts capriciously or arbitrarily, that is, without Sufficient Cause.

"Neither does man.

"God always Acts according to His Preference, considering things as a whole; but not always according to His Preference in things, considering them separately and apart from His Perfect Plan. (See chapter on "The Will of God.")

"For instance, God immanently prefers Holiness at all times, but, in consideration of His Plan as a whole, He Purposed to Permit sin; because it, in some way, is necessary to the Working Out of His Plan.

"This is analogous to the fact that man has conflicting preferences, but he always follows his strongest preference; and in doing so, his will is wholly and absolutely free.

"The position of God's Will, and the Nature and Laws of its Action, are the same as in the case of man's will. Each is subject to the Nature of its possessor. Both express the Nature of their possessors in view of motives. Both man and God are Free at all times to act out their most dominant desires and inclinations.

"God is not more truly a Free Agent than man is.

That the free agency of man at all times may be more manifest, we shall consider:"

* "FREE AGENCY OF THE NATURAL MAN."

"Man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his Natural State (Jer. 17:9; Prov. 4:23; Job 14-4; Jer. 13:23; John 6:65; Rom. 8:7,8; 1 Cor. 2:14). But his continuance in sin is not due to outside compulsion or restraint, but to his own character which causes him to choose darkness rather than light (John 3:19). He continues in sin for the same reason that a hog wallows in the mire. He continues in sin for the same reason that God continues in Holiness. Thus he is fully a Free Agent."

** "FREE AGENCY AND CONVERSION."

"Man is unable to turn from sin until he is Quickened by the Spirit of God. For proof of this see the passages given in proof of the fact that man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his Natural State.

"The New Nature, therefore, must be Implanted logically (but not chronologically) prior to the exercise of Repentance and Faith.*** This is the meaning of the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith when it says that Repentance and Faith are "inseparable Graces Wrought in our souls by the Regenerating Spirit of God." This is also the teaching of Eph. 1:19,20.

"But when a man turns to God in Repentance and Faith he acts voluntarily and is thus a Free Agent. He is not compelled to turn by a power outside of his own Nature. For, in Implanting the New Nature, the Holy Spirit Operates "in the region of the soul below consciousness" (Strong).

"Then that New Nature, when Implanted, becomes as much a part of the man as the Old Nature was; and it moves the will in strict conformity to the Nature, laws, and normal action of the will.

"Thus man is a Free Agent in Conversion; and, of course, remains a Free Agent, although God continues to Work in him "both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). But this work, like the Work of Quickening, does not coerce the will."

***For fuller discussion of this see chapter on "Conversion."

SIMMONS- THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION

 

[David Lamb]

What do you think Irresistible Grace means? You just used used those words, God is wringing His hands, in your privios post. And I have seen many calvinists use the same expression.

Irresistible means "cannot be resisted." But that doesn't mean that God drags sinners, kicking and screaming against His dragging, from godless unbelief to salvation. He changes them, giving them new life and new wills that gratefully accept His salvation.

Pulling one verse out of context, as you have done, is a sure way to lead to error.

Context will clear up that confusuion
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand...

If they had believed then that would have been His sheep. You are puttting the cart before the horse. You want people saved prior to them believing.

Nowhere does Jesus give the slightest indication that one becomes a sheep by believing. The context of the verses I quoted is that Jesus is contrasting those who are His sheep with those who are not. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Those who are not His sheep don't.

[see above- context will clear up your confusion]

I am not confused. I agree that context is always important when reading the Bible.

As we see in scripture [Isa_42:1] Christ is the Elect One. Again just read ing verse in context will clear up the confusion you have.

When you place the emphasis on "chosen before the foundation of the world" you fail to understand that if we are already in Christ from the foundation of the world, then we were never "in Adam" and never needed salvation.

But we were in Adam. Calvinism doesn't say that those whom God chose before the foundation of the world were taken out of Adam before the foundation of the world, or that they don't need salvation.

We are chosen because we are “IN CHRIST” the Chosen one of God.
Eph_1:4 does not say that He chose us “to be in Him”.
It says He chose us “in Him”.
When we believe and put our faith and trust in Christ, we are in put “in Him.”
Eph_1:4-5 teaches HOW we come to be saved and become a part of the family of God and are adopted as son.
It does not teach WHO will be a part of this family.


Then why do you say you were in Christ prior to creation? If one is in Christ they are saved.

I don't say that anybody was in Christ prior to creation. I say again, and hopefully you won't ask again, what we are told that took place before the foundation of the world was that God chose those who would be "in Christ." They, like everybody else, remain in Adam until by God's grace they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember your the ones that claim only those chosen prior to creation are saved.

Your on philosophy betrays you.


But they cannot be the great multitude which no one could count that we see in Rev 7:9. The bible again shows the error of the calcinist philosophy.

Why cannot that great multitude be those whom God chose before Creation?

God told us How we can be saved not Who would be saved.

I agree with that.

Calvinist claim they were picked out prior to creation. Since calvinists, who are the only ones who claim they were pre chosen, make up just a small percentage of Christians then where do you get the multitude which no man can number Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1, Rev 19:6.

Calvinists do not believe that only they and their fellow-Calvinists are saved. All who truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.

The word of God again shows the error of calvinism.

You have taken the truth of God's word and turned it on it's head.


You say only those picked out prior top creation will be saved even though the bible does not say that. Look at your DoG/TULIP your claim re Eph 1:4. The vast majority of humanity does not fit into your philosophy thus are excluded from the possibility of salvation.

So your saying there is more than one way to be saved. The calvinist way and the biblical way.

I am certainly not saying that there is more than one way to be saved.

Then you are denying calvinism.


David you seem to be confused. You say you agree with Rom 5:10 then say the atonement saves. Which is it?


You just said the atonement saves "Jesus and His atoning work actually saves people."

And then said you agree with Rom 5:10 ...we shall be saved by His life.

You seem a bit confused.

Christ's death, atonement, saved no one but it made salvation possible for all for all that would trust in the risen Christ.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

Romans 5:10 isn't talking of two different groups of people, the atoned-for and the saved. They are the same people:

(Rom 5:10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I agree that we are saved by the grace of God Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,..."

But calvinism says man cannot seek God and you just ignore scripture that shows your view is wrong. Avoiding the truth does not make it go away.

The Bible says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness to him. Seeking God is something spiritual. God takes the initiative in bringing sinners to belief and salvation.

The bible clearly shows the error of calvinism and you just ignore the verses that show this so you can hold to that false teaching. Why is that David?

I don't ignore verses. It seems that you do. At least, you understand them differently to me. For example, the verses in Ephesians 2 that talk of Christians before they were saved, having been dead in trespasses and sins, and the fact that it was God Who made them alive.

Calvinism say the spiritually dead cannot seek God, the bible disagrees
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.


You say you do not ignore scripture but you have done that through our whole interaction. I have contrasted calvinism with scripture and you just hold to your calvinism but offer not scripture that supports your view.


My question for you is if you are already "born again/saved" why do you need faith?

I have said several times that I was not saved before I believed. I need faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. To have faith, I needed that newness of life that only God can give.

The philosophy you follow has you saved prior to creation, born again/saved so you then can believe. What you hold to is not biblical but rather it is a man-made philosophy.

Once again, I do not believe that I was saved before Creation. I needed new life in order to believe and be saved.

Christ says it is by hearing and believing you say it is not. You say they have to be saved/born again before they can believe.

I don't say that a sinner has to be saved before they believe. A sinner must be given new life by God to believe. A sinner dead in trespasses and sins cannot believe.

It seems you would rather believe Calvin that Christ.

Not so. I know I have said this before, but it is the truth. I believed the Doctrines of Grace long before I ever knew that there was a man called John Calvin, so I certainly didn't think to myself, "I have read what Christ says in the Bible, and I have read what John Calvin taught in his "Institutes" and elsewhere. I think I'll choose to follow Calvin."

You say you believe John 5:24 but you just said "one must be born again/given new life to believe."

It cannot be both David. You either believe Christ or Calvin.

(Joh 5:24 NKJV) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Yes of course I believe that verse. But John does record Jesus as saying, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me but isn't born again has everlasting life." That would go against John 3:3:

(Joh 3:3 NKJV) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[Silverhair]

Irresistible means "cannot be resisted." But that doesn't mean that God drags sinners, kicking and screaming against His dragging, from godless unbelief to salvation. He changes them, giving them new life and new wills that gratefully accept His salvation.

Where is the clear scripture that supports that?

The bible says man is held responsible for their choices but your view removes that responsibility. The bible says God desires all to be saved so why are they not all saved? You can't say it is because they rejected God as according to you God is the one that changes their will. So again your view has called the honesty of God into question.

Nowhere does Jesus give the slightest indication that one becomes a sheep by believing. The context of the verses I quoted is that Jesus is contrasting those who are His sheep with those who are not. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Those who are not His sheep don't.

You are actually ignoring the context. An eternal decree of pre-temporal election must be first assumed and then read into the text. If we look at the context of this verse we will find it's true meaning.
There's a huge difference between diagnosing why a person doesn't believe versus telling them why they cannot believe.
Your saying they have to be saved first before they can believe. The bible disagree with your view.
Joh_1:12, Joh 3:16, Joh_5:24, Joh_6:40, Joh_20:31

I am not confused. I agree that context is always important when reading the Bible.

You are allowing a man-made theology to cloud your view. Nowhere does the bible say, I will save you so you can believe. You have twisted the word of God to fit your theology.

But we were in Adam. Calvinism doesn't say that those whom God chose before the foundation of the world were taken out of Adam before the foundation of the world, or that they don't need salvation.

You make two fatal errors with your view of election prior to creation
1. you read into the text what you need to find..
Eph_1:4 does not say that He chose us “to be” in Him.
2. you assume that you were one of those chosen

Also if you were chosen before creation was there any possibility that you would be lost? Since you are going to say there was not then that means you were saved by your "election" not through faith in Christ Jesus. which is contrary to what the bible says Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

I don't say that anybody was in Christ prior to creation. I say again, and hopefully you won't ask again, what we are told that took place before the foundation of the world was that God chose those who would be "in Christ." They, like everybody else, remain in Adam until by God's grace they are brought to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

See above

So again you say that God makes people believe. That is not biblical and why does He only cause some to believe if He desires all to believe? Your view once again cvalls the honesty of God into question.
If God actually acted the way calvinism says He does then how could we trust anything He said?

Why cannot that great multitude be those whom God chose before Creation?

They could be if the calvinist view were true but the bible does not support your view. Eph 1:4 does not say WHO will be saved but rather HOW one can be saved.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

You are trying to make the word of God fit your philosophy.

I agree with that.

You say you agree that God told us How we can be saved not Who would be saved.

Then you have to alter your view of election. You have indicated more than once WHO would be saved as they were picked out prior to creation.

Calvinists do not believe that only they and their fellow-Calvinists are saved. All who truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.

So your saying there is more than one way to be saved. Some through "election", calvinists, and some through faith non-calvinists.

Unless you think some of those pre-seleted before creation can be lost in which case you have now called into question the honesty of God.

I am certainly not saying that there is more than one way to be saved.

That is exactly what you do say when you say you were elected prior to creation. Was there any possibility that you would be lost under your view? So you were saved through election not through faith.

Romans 5:10 isn't talking of two different groups of people, the atoned-for and the saved. They are the same people:

So your saying that all the enemies of God will be saved, but that sounds like universalism and we know that is not biblical so you view must be wrong.

The atonement has provide atonement for all but only those that freely trust in Him will be saved. We see this through out the word of God. Rom 10:9-10, Joh 3:16-17, Joh 6:40

The Bible says that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness to him. Seeking God is something spiritual. God takes the initiative in bringing sinners to belief and salvation.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether through creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48 The Jews and Gentiles heard the gospel message preached by Paul & Barnabas but while many of the Jews rejected the message some of the Gentiles were overjoyed and trusted in Christ. But drawing does not mean that all who are drawn will respond in faith or we would have universal salvation.

Joh 3:18, Joh 3:36, Joh 8:24, Joh 8:46, Joh 10:25

Heb_11:6 ...he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I don't ignore verses. It seems that you do. At least, you understand them differently to me. For example, the verses in Ephesians 2 that talk of Christians before they were saved, having been dead in trespasses and sins, and the fact that it was God Who made them alive.

Yes I do understand them differently than you. I take the word of God as written without trying to make them fit a preconceived philosophy, calvinism.

God does make people alive but He does so because they have believed as we see in Eph 1:13-14, Rom 10:13

I have said several times that I was not saved before I believed. I need faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. To have faith, I needed that newness of life that only God can give.

But you hold to a philosophy that says you were saved by "election" prior to creation. And further you say salvation is unconditional, TULIP/DoG.

Even in your answer you have yourself saved/born again prior to being given faith so you could believe.

Once again, I do not believe that I was saved before Creation. I needed new life in order to believe and be saved.

And once again I ask if your were "elected" prior to creation could you ever be lost? And if you are born anew you are saved so according to you no faith was required.

You continue to point to calvinism not the bible.

I don't say that a sinner has to be saved before they believe. A sinner must be given new life by God to believe. A sinner dead in trespasses and sins cannot believe.

If the sinner has new life then they are already saved as that is what being saved means.

The bible says all those dead sinners could hear and believe onto salvation.

What calvinism teaches is a twisted version of scripture.

Not so. I know I have said this before, but it is the truth. I believed the Doctrines of Grace long before I ever knew that there was a man called John Calvin, so I certainly didn't think to myself, "I have read what Christ says in the Bible, and I have read what John Calvin taught in his "Institutes" and elsewhere. I think I'll choose to follow Calvin."

It is not possible to find the DoG/TULIP in scripture unless you twist the word of God.

(Joh 5:24 NKJV) "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Yes of course I believe that verse. But John does record Jesus as saying, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me but isn't born again has everlasting life." That would go against John 3:3:

(Joh 3:3 NKJV) Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh 3:3 and Joh 5:24 are in agreement.

Note the order
Joh 5:24; hear, believe, everlasting life, not come into judgment, passed from death into life.

Joh 3:3 unless one is born again, cannot see the kingdom of God

Do you think having eternal life is different from being born again or seeing the Kingdom of God?


David you are a brother in Christ what I am questioning is how you understand Who and How a person can be saved.

 

[David Lamb]

Where is the clear scripture that supports that?

(Joh 6:44 NKJV) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I seem to remember you writing that the verses doesn't say, "except the Father drags him."

We have the example of Paul on the Damascus Road. Did Jesus drag him against his will? Certainly before the encounter, Paul/Saul had indeed been resisting Christ, as we see from the words of Jesus, "It is hard for you to kick against the goads" (see Acts 9:5) But now, he does not resist. He calls Jesus "Lord", and asks Him, "What do You want me to do?"

The bible says man is held responsible for their choices but your view removes that responsibility.

Yes, sinners are responsible for their sins, including the sin of unbelief. But those who come to believe cannot take any credit for their belief. Take Paul again. What was he doing when God brought him to believe? Going to Damascus to round up any Christians he found there for punishment, not seeking salvation.

You are actually ignoring the context. An eternal decree of pre-temporal election must be first assumed and then read into the text. If we look at the context of this verse we will find it's true meaning.

No, yet again, I am NOT saying that a sinner has to be saved first and then believe. I am saying, on the basis of Scripture, that a sinner must have new (spiritual) life before they can believe. Just as Lazarus couldn't obey the command to "Come forth" from the tomb while he was still dead, so sinners dead in trespasses and sins cannot obey the command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ while they remain spiritually dead.

You are allowing a man-made theology to cloud your view. Nowhere does the bible say, I will save you so you can believe. You have twisted the word of God to fit your theology.

My theology comes from Scripture. Another thing I keep telling you, which you seem to ignore, is that I came to believe as I do long before even hearing that a man named John Calvin (or Augustine) existed, let alone what his theology was. I didn't read Calvin, and then read the Bible through the lens of Calvin's writings.

You make two fatal errors with your view of election prior to creation
1. you read into the text what you need to find..
Eph_1:4 does not say that He chose us “to be” in Him.

I don't need to add the words "to be". By nature, the Ephesians to whom Paul is writing, like indeed every human being, were "in Adam." Something has to change for them to be "in Christ."

2. you assume that you were one of those chosen

I assume no such thing. Before I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, I had no thoughts of God's election. Even when I was converted, I did not immediately think, "I'm one of God's chosen." Only later, when I had come to know more of the Scriptures, did I come to see that I, like every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, was a subject of God's choosing.

Also if you were chosen before creation was there any possibility that you would be lost? Since you are going to say there was not then that means you were saved by your "election" not through faith in Christ Jesus. which is contrary to what the bible says Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

No, another repeat, God's choosing before the foundation of the world did not save me or any sinner before the foundation of the world. By God's grace I was brought (drawn) to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved.

See above

So again you say that God makes people believe. That is not biblical and why does He only cause some to believe if He desires all to believe? Your view once again cvalls the honesty of God into question.

Not "makes people believe," but enables them to believe. As for God desiring all men to be saved, if that really meant that God desired every single person who has ever existed or will exist to believe, then all would believe, because what God wills, He does.

If God actually acted the way calvinism says He does then how could we trust anything He said?

Not quite sure what you mean here. I trust God fully, and what He says in His word.

They could be if the calvinist view were true but the bible does not support your view. Eph 1:4 does not say WHO will be saved but rather HOW one can be saved.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Chosen by God, so He knows. We don't.

So your saying there is more than one way to be saved. Some through "election", calvinists, and some through faith non-calvinists.

No (again something I have written in reply to you several times). There is one way to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." That is what Calvinists believe. For example, the Calvinistic 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith says:

"Paragraph 1​

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3

---

1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8
2 Rom. 10:14,17
3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32"

Unless you think some of those pre-seleted before creation can be lost in which case you have now called into question the honesty of God.

I don't believe the elect will be lost.

That is exactly what you do say when you say you were elected prior to creation. Was there any possibility that you would be lost under your view? So you were saved through election not through faith.

(I have already answered this above, but as you have asked it again, I'll repeat). Salvation comes about by grace through faith.

So your saying that all the enemies of God will be saved, but that sounds like universalism and we know that is not biblical so you view must be wrong.

When did I say that the enemies of God will be saved? In the sense that we are all by nature enemies of God, those whom God saves were once His enemies, but they were brought by God's grace to believe on His Son and were saved. That's not universalism. It would be if I said that I believed that all of God's enemies, in other words every human being without exception, would be saved.

The atonement has provide atonement for all but only those that freely trust in Him will be saved. We see this through out the word of God. Rom 10:9-10, Joh 3:16-17, Joh 6:40

Atonement or in New Testament terms, reconciliation, brings enemies of God to unity with God. The idea that God provides atonement/reconciliation for all, but some of them end up in hell, is unbiblical.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether through creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.
(Too long to post, so splitting)

 

[David Lamb]

So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation. We see this clearly in Act_13:46-48 The Jews and Gentiles heard the gospel message preached by Paul & Barnabas but while many of the Jews rejected the message some of the Gentiles were overjoyed and trusted in Christ. But drawing does not mean that all who are drawn will respond in faith or we would have universal salvation.

So you can envisage God drawing people to His Son, but some of them thwart God's drawing and do not come?

Heb_11:6 ...he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Agree with that. It's Scripture.

Yes I do understand them differently than you. I take the word of God as written without trying to make them fit a preconceived philosophy, calvinism.

God does make people alive but He does so because they have believed as we see in Eph 1:13-14, Rom 10:13

But you do that very thing. Jesus said to some Jews, "You do not believe because you are not of My sheep," and you say that He meant, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe, and you could become My sheep by believing."

But you hold to a philosophy that says you were saved by "election" prior to creation. And further you say salvation is unconditional, TULIP/DoG.

I've already answered that at least twice in this reply.

Even in your answer you have yourself saved/born again prior to being given faith so you could believe.

Answered that already too.

And once again I ask if your were "elected" prior to creation could you ever be lost? And if you are born anew you are saved so according to you no faith was required.

You continue to point to calvinism not the bible.

Where have I ever said that no faith was required? I don't believe that, and I am sure I have never said such a thing.

If the sinner has new life then they are already saved as that is what being saved means.

Being saved involves more than being given new (spiritual) life. That new life results in belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

The bible says all those dead sinners could hear and believe onto salvation.

Where does the Bible say that still-dead sinners could hear and believe onto salvation?

David you are a brother in Christ what I am questioning is how you understand Who and How a person can be saved.

Well, I hope if you read all of my current reply you will see how I understand how a person can be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

We have the example of Paul on the Damascus Road. Did Jesus drag him against his will?

David you refer to Joh 6:44 and Paul on the Damascus Road to defend your view that God's drawing is irresistible. But nether verse gives you what you need. God draws all but drags/forces no one.
When you use Joh_6:44 or Paul to prove Irresistible response, you are saying that all whom God draws will come in faith, you have locked yourself into a universalist salvation logic. Joh 12:32 says Christ draws "ALL"

The problem is that those passages do not say that the drawing guarantees the “coming”. That is something that must be read into the passage.

But those who come to believe cannot take any credit for their belief.

Are you suggesting that God believes for them? The bible is clear on who is held responsible to believe and it is not God, it is the person.

Who will be saved?
See Eph 1:13 "...having heard and believed", Rom 10:9 "...if you confess ...and believe", Rom 10:13 "Everyone who calls"

I am NOT saying that a sinner has to be saved first and then believe. I am saying, on the basis of Scripture, that a sinner must have new (spiritual) life before they can believe.

But that is just what your theology does say.

Where is the scripture that says “you must have new (spiritual) life before they can believe.”?Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” not so you will have faith.

“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim:

‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ R.C. Sproul

"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. L. Boettner

So we see from these quotes that regeneration = saved in calvinist/reformed theology.

My theology comes from Scripture.

The theology you say you follow DoG/TULIP does not do so. What you have shown me is scripture read through a calvinist lens. You have said that you hold to the DoG/TULIP so you had to have heard of it. It does not require that you be told of calvin or augustine for you to have been taught their man-made views.

I don't need to add the words "to be". By nature, the Ephesians to whom Paul is writing, like indeed every human being, were "in Adam." Something has to change for them to be "in Christ."

Your theology says you were pre-selected B4 creation so were you ever really in Adam? Could you ever be lost? Not according to your theology. So, yes, your view does have to read Eph 1:4 as if it said “He chose us “to be” in Him”

Yes, we were all in Adam and something did change, as I have pointed out a number of times. Those who were in Adam could respond to the drawing of God and freely trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. That is just what we see in scripture.

Before I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, I had no thoughts of God's election. Even when I was converted, I did not immediately think, "I'm one of God's chosen." Only later, when I had come to know more of the Scriptures, did I come to see that I, like every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, was a subject of God's choosing.

You had to be taught about the calvinist pre-selection/election by someone that held that particular view. It is not a position found in the bible when you look at the totality of scripture.

No one was pre-chosen/elected as calvinism posits. We are chosen for salvation by God because we believe not so we would believe. Calvinism has people saved prior to any faith/trust in Christ.

God's choosing before the foundation of the world did not save me or any sinner before the foundation of the world. By God's grace I was brought (drawn) to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved.

Yet again you hold to the view you were pre-selected. If so was there any possibility that you would be lost? So it was that “election” not your faith that saved you.

“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. L. Boettner

It seems you are trying to walk on both sides of the road David.

But the real question for you is HOW do you know you actually were one of the calvinist “elect”? You can hope you were but you have no way of knowing for sure. What makes you think you were so special in God’s eyes that He picked you out of all those sinners?

Not "makes people believe," but enables them to believe. As for God desiring all men to be saved, if that really meant that God desired every single person who has ever existed or will exist to believe, then all would believe, because what God wills, He does.

So you agree that God’s grace goes before, He enables those He draws to believe. Christ said He would draw all men to Himself, are you suggesting that He got it wrong? God desires all to come to repentance and be saved. Why do you reject clear scripture but expect me to accept your non-biblical interpretation

Not quite sure what you mean here. I trust God fully, and what He says in His word.

You say you trust God’s word but then continue to deny God’s word. See your comment above.

Chosen by God, so He knows. We don't.

God chose HOW we would be saved, through faith. Not WHO would be saved, by your calvinist pre-selection B4 creation.

No (again something I have written in reply to you several times). There is one way to be saved. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Yes I know you have denied the reality of your theology several times but that does not change what you have said. Calvinist’s claim they were pre-selected B4 creation so could they ever be lost? So whether you admit it or not you are saying there are two ways to be saved. Calvinist “election” and through biblical faith.

I don't believe the elect will be lost.

So if your “elect” cannot be lost they do not need to believe to be saved. You just agreed with what I just said above.

Salvation comes about by grace through faith.

For the non-calvinist salvation by grace through faith is true and necessary but not so for the calvinist according to their stated position of pre-selection and even in your DoG/TULIP.

You keep saying salvation comes through faith but your claim of “election” B4 creation makes that calvinist claim moot. You just said that none of the Calvinist elect will be lost. So whether they believe or not is not the deciding factor it is whether they were “elected” or not.

When did I say that the enemies of God will be saved?

When you said “Romans 5:10 isn't talking of two different groups of people, the atoned-for and the saved. They are the same people: “

The atonement has provide atonement for all but only those that freely trust in Him will be saved. We see this throughout the word of God. Rom 10:9-10, Joh 3:16-17, Joh 6:40

The idea that God provides atonement/reconciliation for all, but some of them end up in hell, is unbiblical.

Not unbiblical David, the word of God

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Rom 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2Co_5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

2Co_5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Atonement/reconciliation does not save but makes salvation possible for all.

I will get to the second part later.

 

[Silverhair]

So you can envisage God drawing people to His Son, but some of them thwart God's drawing and do not come?

Do you not have Joh 12:32 in your bible? That text is clear or do you think it has another meaning?

Agree with that. It's Scripture.

Good to see that we can agree on some things.

God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether through creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation.

But you do that very thing. Jesus said to some Jews, "You do not believe because you are not of My sheep," and you say that He meant, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe, and you could become My sheep by believing."

That is what you will find in scripture if you learn to read things in context rather than cherry-picking out of context verses as you have done. Yes He said you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep but He also told them how one became His sheep through trusting in His works.

They are not sheep first then believe but believe first and then become His sheep. Isa_53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;...”

Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers. Joh_10:37-38

I've already answered that at least twice in this reply.

Actually what you do is give non answers. You can deny what your "election" B4 creation actually means but it does not change the reality of that position. You can say that is not what we believe but the what you claim says something different.

Answered that already too.

No really. What you done is ignore your own theology.

Where have I ever said that no faith was required? I don't believe that, and I am sure I have never said such a thing.

You hold to the DoG/TULIP and "election " B4 creation and both point to salvation without need faith.

Are you now saying you do not hold to either of those positions?

Being saved involves more than being given new (spiritual) life. That new life results in belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

I agree one must believe on Christ Jesus to be saved. But that is not what calvinism teaches is it?

The condition of salvation is FAITH yet your DoG/TULIP say salvation is unconditional, how do you square that circle?

Where does the Bible say that still-dead sinners could hear and believe onto salvation?

Where does it say they were first made alive in these verses?

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.



Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.



Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."



Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Well, I hope if you read all of my current reply you will see how I understand how a person can be saved.

What I have seen is that you follow the man-made version of how someone can be saved and dismiss the biblical truth.

Like it or not the basis of calvinism is augustine and later calvin etc. I do not doubt that you want to know the truth but as long as you cling to those false views you will miss the truths of the word of God.