Unbelief vs Belief ?

[Ben1445]

 

[Silverhair]

Both God and proper theology (Calvinism) say both these things (John 6:37-40).
That your human reasoning cannot comprehend this is your problem, not mine. I can only refer you to the Bible. If it's any encouragement to you, Nicodemus couldn't understand it at first either (John 3:1-10).

Of course I do! But without being born anew (or 'from above') they freely choose to reject Him. When God opens their hearts, they freely receive Him. I have said this so many times before that I'm surprised that you feel the need to keep on asking. Read the 1689 Confession.

I have shown many times, on this and other boards, that the calvinist philosophy is based on pagan religions brought into the church by Augustine and carried forward by calvin and later calvinists. So your so called proper theology is just a twisted version of the true biblical message.

I find it saddening that someone that claims to teach the word of God has such a lack of understanding of the word of God. My prayer for you and all calvinists is that you would trust the actual word of God and not the calvinist misunderstanding of the word of God.

Your comments show your misunderstanding of scripture. You force the word of God to fit you false philosophy. Why God has determined that you and so many other calvinists would follow those false teachings I do not know.

You say I should read the 1689 confessions I would suggest that you should read and trust the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

View attachment 14307

I am always amazed at the arrogance of calvinists when they think they were so special that God, before creation, picked them out to be saved.

 

[David Lamb]

I have shown many times, on this and other boards, that the calvinist philosophy is based on pagan religions brought into the church by Augustine and carried forward by calvin and later calvinists. So your so called proper theology is just a twisted version of the true biblical message.

I find it saddening that someone that claims to teach the word of God has such a lack of understanding of the word of God. My prayer for you and all calvinists is that you would trust the actual word of God and not the calvinist misunderstanding of the word of God.

Your comments show your misunderstanding of scripture. You force the word of God to fit you false philosophy. Why God has determined that you and so many other calvinists would follow those false teachings I do not know.

You say I should read the 1689 confessions I would suggest that you should read and trust the word of God.

The 1689 Confession is meticulous in providing Scripture passages for every statement made. As for the doctrines Calvin taught being based on pagan philosophy, that just is not true. I have said before that I believed those doctrines because I read them in the Bible, long before I had heard of Calvin or Augustine.

 

[David Lamb]

I am always amazed at the arrogance of calvinists when they think they were so special that God, before creation, picked them out to be saved.

Have you ever heard or read somebody who believes the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism, as you call it) saying anything resembling, "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"? Can you quote anyone saying/writing such a thing? They are more likely to echo hymn words lke these:

Chosen not for good in me,
Waked from coming wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour’s side,
By the Spirit sanctified--
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
By my love, how much I owe.

Or these:

My God has chosen me,
Though one of nought,
To sit beside my King
In heaven's court.
Hear what my Lord has done,
O the love that made Him run
To meet His erring son!
This has God wrought.

3 Not for my righteousness,
For I have none,
But for His mercy's sake,
Jesus, God's Son,
Suffered on Calvary's tree -
Crucified with thieves was He -
Great was His grace to me,
His wayward one!

 

[Silverhair]

The 1689 Confession is meticulous in providing Scripture passages for every statement made. As for the doctrines Calvin taught being based on pagan philosophy, that just is not true. I have said before that I believed those doctrines because I read them in the Bible, long before I had heard of Calvin or Augustine.

That confession is a man made work designed to support their particular views. All confession are meticulous in providing Scripture passages for every statement made. Does that mean we are to accept all those confessions as true? By your logic that would be the correct thing to do.

That is why I do not base my faith on confession but on the word of God as written, read in context. The bane of theology is cherry picking out of context verses because they say what we want to find.

Do you really think you were so special that God picked you out for salvation before creation?

 

[Silverhair]

Have you ever heard or read somebody who believes the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism, as you call it) saying anything resembling, "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"? Can you quote anyone saying/writing such a thing? They are more likely to echo hymn words lke these:

Chosen not for good in me,
Waked from coming wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour’s side,
By the Spirit sanctified--
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
By my love, how much I owe.

Or these:

My God has chosen me,
Though one of nought,
To sit beside my King
In heaven's court.
Hear what my Lord has done,
O the love that made Him run
To meet His erring son!
This has God wrought.

3 Not for my righteousness,
For I have none,
But for His mercy's sake,
Jesus, God's Son,
Suffered on Calvary's tree -
Crucified with thieves was He -
Great was His grace to me,
His wayward one!

David you are trying to deflect from the real issue when you say quote someone. Have you or any other calvinists ever referred to Eph 1:4 "For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." in support of your being chosen? If so then you and they made the claim "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"

Even the hymn you quoted reinforces the calvinist view of I must be special, "My God has chosen me,"

Look at your DoG which is calvinism.

Unconditional Election [no faith required for salvation] has it’s corollary
Unconditional Rejection (in eternity past before anyone had done good or bad)

Limited Atonement [for the few or Scarce Atonement for the few] [also has it’s corollary
Limited or Scarce Love, Mercy and Grace in favor of Copious, Grandiose and Unequaled Wrath, Damnation and Destruction of those who were Irresistibly Created FOR Reprobation and Unconditionally Chosen FOR Rejection in eternity past!!!

Irresistible Grace [forced to come to Him prior to faith] has it’s corollary
Irresistible Reprobation (God denies them the ability to come to Him then condemns them for it)

This may sound rather harsh but it is the reality of the theological view that you follow.

That is all you need to know to see what kind of a God the calvinist god is. The moral character of the calvinist deity is nothing like the God of the Bible.

The Calvinist/Reformed {C/R} theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. According to C/R, if you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

 

[David Lamb]

That confession is a man made work designed to support their particular views. All confession are meticulous in providing Scripture passages for every statement made. Does that mean we are to accept all those confessions as true? By your logic that would be the correct thing to do.

That is why I do not base my faith on confession but on the word of God as written, read in context. The bane of theology is cherry picking out of context verses because they say what we want to find.

Do you really think you were so special that God picked you out for salvation before creation?

I don't think I am special at all. I indicated that in Post 85, although I was referring to other people, I would include myself.

 

[David Lamb]

David you are trying to deflect from the real issue when you say quote someone. Have you or any other calvinists ever referred to Eph 1:4 "For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." in support of your being chosen? If so then you and they made the claim "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"

Even the hymn you quoted reinforces the calvinist view of I must be special, "My God has chosen me,"

Look at your DoG which is calvinism.

Unconditional Election [no faith required for salvation] has it’s corollary
Unconditional Rejection (in eternity past before anyone had done good or bad)

Limited Atonement [for the few or Scarce Atonement for the few] [also has it’s corollary
Limited or Scarce Love, Mercy and Grace in favor of Copious, Grandiose and Unequaled Wrath, Damnation and Destruction of those who were Irresistibly Created FOR Reprobation and Unconditionally Chosen FOR Rejection in eternity past!!!

Irresistible Grace [forced to come to Him prior to faith] has it’s corollary
Irresistible Reprobation (God denies them the ability to come to Him then condemns them for it)

This may sound rather harsh but it is the reality of the theological view that you follow.

That is all you need to know to see what kind of a God the calvinist god is. The moral character of the calvinist deity is nothing like the God of the Bible.

The Calvinist/Reformed {C/R} theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. According to C/R, if you are not part of this select group then you are doomed form the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

I believe that God has chosen me, but certainly not because I am somebody special. The idea that quoting Ephesians 1:4 (or any other verse about God's election) is saying that I think I am special, and that is why God chose me is just wrong. So is your idea that Calvinists believe that [no faith is required for salvation, or that they believe God's love, grace and mercy are scarce, or that God forces sinners to come to Hm. You seem to have very muddled ideas of what I believe.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think I am special at all. I indicated that in Post 85, although I was referring to other people, I would include myself.

I understand why you would say that but the theology you follow tells a different story.

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

All those point to your being "special" as they exclude the vast majority of humanity.

 

[Silverhair]

I believe that God has chosen me, but certainly not because I am somebody special. The idea that quoting Ephesians 1:4 (or any other verse about God's election) is saying that I think I am special, and that is why God chose me is just wrong. So is your idea that Calvinists believe that [no faith is required for salvation, or that they believe God's love, grace and mercy are scarce, or that God forces sinners to come to Hm. You seem to have very muddled ideas of what I believe.

If you or any other person thinks they were pick out prior to creation then there must have been something special about them. God is not arbitrary so He must have seen something in you to have chosen you over all those other sinners.

You do not have to take my word for it David. But will you take theirs?
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73]. “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

Calvinists teach that you must be born again with life from the Holy Spirit before you may respond to God in any way.
If Calvinism is true then faith in Jesus is secondary to election and logically faith plays no part in your salvation, election is what matters not faith.

David I am just pointing out what calvinism teaches. If you do not agree with those teaching then you are not a calvinist.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

View attachment 14307

The Arminian firefighter turns up and finds that none of the prisoners want to escape. They think it's great there and don't believe the building is really burning!

 

[David Lamb]

I understand why you would say that but the theology you follow tells a different story.

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

All those point to your being "special" as they exclude the vast majority of humanity.

Why the vast majority? I have no idea of how many, or what proportion of humankind God will save.

The things you mention above don't make me special. It is God Who is "special". Why did God choose Old Testament Israel?:

(Deu 7:7-8 NKJV) The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have shown many times, on this and other boards, that the calvinist philosophy is based on pagan religions brought into the church by Augustine and carried forward by calvin and later calvinists. So your so called proper theology is just a twisted version of the true biblical message.

You're right; you have posted this nonsense many times. The fact is that the Holy Spirit teaches Calvinism in the Bible, so whether Augustine was influenced by pagans or not is irrelevant.

I find it saddening that someone that claims to teach the word of God has such a lack of understanding of the word of God. My prayer for you and all calvinists is that you would trust the actual word of God and not the calvinist misunderstanding of the word of God.

Your comments show your misunderstanding of scripture. You force the word of God to fit you false philosophy. Why God has determined that you and so many other calvinists would follow those false teachings I do not know.

You say I should read the 1689 confessions I would suggest that you should read and trust the word of God.

My prayer for you is that you would read the Bible without your prejudices which are blinding you to the truth contained in it.

There! Is that enough mutual insults? Then let's lay off each other and find something more constructive to do.

 

[David Lamb]

If you or any other person thinks they were pick out prior to creation then there must have been something special about them. God is not arbitrary so He must have seen something in you to have chosen you over all those other sinners.

You do not have to take my word for it David. But will you take theirs?
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73]. “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

Calvinists teach that you must be born again with life from the Holy Spirit before you may respond to God in any way.
If Calvinism is true then faith in Jesus is secondary to election and logically faith plays no part in your salvation, election is what matters not faith.

David I am just pointing out what calvinism teaches. If you do not agree with those teaching then you are not a calvinist.

I am certainly not what you seem to understand it means to be a Calvinist.

 

[Silverhair]

I am certainly not what you seem to understand it means to be a Calvinist.

It is not what I seem to understand but what calvinism says of itself.

 

[Silverhair]

You're right; you have posted this nonsense many times. The fact is that the Holy Spirit teaches Calvinism in the Bible, so whether Augustine was influenced by pagans or not is irrelevant.

My prayer for you is that you would read the Bible without your prejudices which are blinding you to the truth contained in it.

There! Is that enough mutual insults? Then let's lay off each other and find something more constructive to do.

You can continue to ignore the facts but that does not change the truth regarding the foundations of your calvinism is pagan philosophy.

My prayers for you are not an insult Martin, rather odd that you would think that.

 

[Silverhair]

Why the vast majority? I have no idea of how many, or what proportion of humankind God will save.

The things you mention above don't make me special. It is God Who is "special". Why did God choose Old Testament Israel?:

(Deu 7:7-8 NKJV) The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

I did not realize that you were a Jew.

Were they chosen for salvation or were they chosen to be the nation through which the Messiah would come?

Calvinists think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. That is not biblical but it is a sign of arrogance.

 

[David Lamb]

I did not realize that you were a Jew.

Were they chosen for salvation or were they chosen to be the nation through which the Messiah would come?

Calvinists think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. That is not biblical but it is a sign of arrogance.

I didn't say anything about me being a Jew. I am English. And I keep telling you that you are wrong. Calvinists do not think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. If that were true, they would be boasting. Paul, in reminding Christians that they had been saved by God's grace, says:

(Eph 2:8-10 NKJV) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am always amazed at the arrogance of calvinists when they think they were so special that God, before creation, picked them out to be saved.

You can continue to ignore the facts but that does not change the truth regarding the foundations of your calvinism is pagan philosophy.

My prayers for you are not an insult Martin, rather odd that you would think that.

Calvinists think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. That is not biblical but it is a sign of arrogance.

May I refer you to Bambi and the wise words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (c.f. Job 13:5).