The Two Surrenders

[DaveXR650]

Sanctification precedes.

1 Peter 1:2, . . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:13, . . . from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth . . .

I think that's sanctification in the sense of God separating out his elect. Have you become a Calvinist?

 

[37818]

Have you become a Calvinist?

No.

Genesis 3:22.

I hold to conditional election.

1 Timothy 2:6, . . . Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . .

 

[37818]

.

Have you become a Calvinist?

What causes you to suppose that I may have?

 

[DaveXR650]

What causes you to suppose that I may have?

I'm just messing with you. The idea that the first thing that happens in salvation is sanctification, which in that usage means you are separated out for salvation - is a very Calvinistic teaching. (Sanctification - setting apart for a sacred purpose.)

 

[SovereignGrace]

The parable you quoted deals with faithfulness and reward, not with the question I am raising. I am not disputing that God blesses obedience and chastens disobedience. We agree on that.

The issue I am addressing is much narrower.

Are repentance, obedience, perseverance, and visible fruit post‑salvation conditions for salvation, or are they the results of salvation?

That is the doctrinal hinge I am examining. The parable does not answer that question, and I am trying to keep the discussion focused on that single point.

They are evidences of the new birth, not the cause.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Give said Scripture.

I already addressed this earlier. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues.

Repentance in salvation is once for all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life.

The Scriptures that show this distinction are:

Repentance unto salvation

Acts 20:21 – repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 11:18 – God granted repentance unto life.

2 Corinthians 7:10 – godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of.

Repentance in sanctification

Revelation 2:5 – believers commanded to repent and do the first works.

Revelation 3:19 – as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.

1 John 1:9 – confession and cleansing for ongoing sin in the believer’s walk.

These passages show the difference between repentance that accompanies salvation and repentance that belongs to the believer’s ongoing sanctification.

Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

 

[37818]

I already addressed this earlier. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues.

Repentance in salvation is once for all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life.

The Scriptures that show this distinction are:

Repentance unto salvation

Acts 20:21 – repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 11:18 – God granted repentance unto life.

2 Corinathians 7:10 – godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of.

Repentance in sanctification

Revelation 2:5 – believers commanded to repent and do the first works.

Revelation 3:19 – as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.

1 John 1:9 – confession and cleansing for ongoing sin in the believer’s walk.

These passages show the difference between repentance that accompanies salvation and repentance that belongs to the believer’s ongoing sanctification.

Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

You conflated things to make your claims.
Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Messager not believers!

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

You conflated things to make your claims.
Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Messager not believers!

Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

They are evidences of the new birth, not the cause.

Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

But you cannot divorce them from each other. They are part and parcel concerning salvation.

 

[DaveXR650]

Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

But you cannot divorce them from each other. They are part and parcel concerning salvation.

Yes. The whole point is that the modern no lordship teaching not only separates them as theological definitions - but they separate them to the point where sanctification is no longer essential at all. One thing MacArthur does in his book is to use references and for sure he goes no further than Edwards, Gill, Spurgeon, Ryle, several early Church fathers, to back up his point. In post 40 I pointed out how some very good theologians were concerned with MacArthur's impreciseness in some of his writing. But in a way, having lived through this time myself and having seen the effects of it I think the theologians owe Mac an apology. After looking through his referenced quotes I would say he goes no further than the greatest preachers and theologians of all time. The responses to his work may be a sad commentary on just how far we have devolved in the Christian faith, at least in America and Western Europe.

 

[Van]

I already addressed this. You can go back to the replies and see it. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.

1) Making non-specific reference to answers rather just quoting the sentence that answers the question is discouraging.

2) "Repentance unto salvation" again is non-specific. Committing to Christ, both in our belief He is God and Savior, and in our love and devotion to Christ as our Lord, thus making a heart-felt commitment to serve Him, over and against anything else, would be a better description. . But even that only describes what we do, and leaves out what God does to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

3) I already addressed "Repentance unto Sanctification" as misguided, providing the biblical meanings of sanctification as used with regard to salvation in post #7.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

1) Making non-specific reference to answers rather just quoting the sentence that answers the question is discouraging.

2) "Repentance unto salvation" again is non-specific. Committing to Christ, both in our belief He is God and Savior, and in our love and devotion to Christ as our Lord, thus making a heart-felt commitment to serve Him, over and against anything else, would be a better description. . But even that only describes what we do, and leaves out what God does to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

3) I already addressed "Repentance unto Sanctification" as misguided, providing the biblical meanings of sanctification as used with regard to salvation in post #7.

OK, Van, post #7 does not address repentance in sanctification at all. It only outlines your three categories of sanctification. My point was about repentance, not the definition of sanctification. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation as once‑for‑all (Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18, 2 Corinthians 7:10), and repentance in sanctification as ongoing (Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, 1 John 1:9).

 

[Ascetic X]

You conflated things to make your claims.
Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Messager not believers!

Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Angel/messenger of the church at Ephesus. It speaks of the believers in that church.

Rev. 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Look at the whole letter. Hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev. 2

1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.

2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious,I will give the right to eat from the tree of life,which is in the paradise of God.

 

[37818]

Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Angel/messenger of the church at Ephesus. It speaks of the believers in that church.

False.

Because the individual, the Messenger is being told his faults.

. . . Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. . . .

. . . thou . . . thee . . . thy . . . thou . . . .


The candlestick is the church the Messenger Pastor's.

 

[Ascetic X]

False.

Because the individual, the Messenger is being told his faults.

. . . Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. . . .

. . . thou . . . thee . . . thy . . . thou . . . .


The candlestick is the church the Messenger Pastor's.

Scripture says angel or messenger of the church, not pastor.

No book or letter of the New Testament is ever addressed to a pastor.