DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I think that's sanctification in the sense of God separating out his elect. Have you become a Calvinist?
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The Two Surrenders
- Thread starter Anthony Pritchard
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
No.
Genesis 3:22.
I hold to conditional election.
1 Timothy 2:6, . . . Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . .
37818
Well-Known Member
.
What causes you to suppose that I may have?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I'm just messing with you. The idea that the first thing that happens in salvation is sanctification, which in that usage means you are separated out for salvation - is a very Calvinistic teaching. (Sanctification - setting apart for a sacred purpose.)
They are evidences of the new birth, not the cause.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
I already addressed this earlier. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues.
Repentance in salvation is once for all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life.
The Scriptures that show this distinction are:
Repentance unto salvation
Acts 20:21 – repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 11:18 – God granted repentance unto life.
2 Corinthians 7:10 – godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of.
Repentance in sanctification
Revelation 2:5 – believers commanded to repent and do the first works.
Revelation 3:19 – as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.
1 John 1:9 – confession and cleansing for ongoing sin in the believer’s walk.
These passages show the difference between repentance that accompanies salvation and repentance that belongs to the believer’s ongoing sanctification.
Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.
37818
Well-Known Member
You conflated things to make your claims.
Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Messager not believers!
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Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Scripture presents repentance unto salvation and repentance unto sanctification as two distinct issues. Repentance in salvation is once‑for‑all, completed at conversion. Repentance in sanctification is ongoing, part of growth and correction in the Christian life. Lordship Salvation conflates these two categories, and that is the doctrinal point I am addressing.
But you cannot divorce them from each other. They are part and parcel concerning salvation.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Yes. The whole point is that the modern no lordship teaching not only separates them as theological definitions - but they separate them to the point where sanctification is no longer essential at all. One thing MacArthur does in his book is to use references and for sure he goes no further than Edwards, Gill, Spurgeon, Ryle, several early Church fathers, to back up his point. In post 40 I pointed out how some very good theologians were concerned with MacArthur's impreciseness in some of his writing. But in a way, having lived through this time myself and having seen the effects of it I think the theologians owe Mac an apology. After looking through his referenced quotes I would say he goes no further than the greatest preachers and theologians of all time. The responses to his work may be a sad commentary on just how far we have devolved in the Christian faith, at least in America and Western Europe.
1) Making non-specific reference to answers rather just quoting the sentence that answers the question is discouraging.
2) "Repentance unto salvation" again is non-specific. Committing to Christ, both in our belief He is God and Savior, and in our love and devotion to Christ as our Lord, thus making a heart-felt commitment to serve Him, over and against anything else, would be a better description. . But even that only describes what we do, and leaves out what God does to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness.
3) I already addressed "Repentance unto Sanctification" as misguided, providing the biblical meanings of sanctification as used with regard to salvation in post #7.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
OK, Van, post #7 does not address repentance in sanctification at all. It only outlines your three categories of sanctification. My point was about repentance, not the definition of sanctification. Scripture presents repentance unto salvation as once‑for‑all (Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18, 2 Corinthians 7:10), and repentance in sanctification as ongoing (Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, 1 John 1:9).
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Revelation 2:5 is addressed to the Angel/messenger of the church at Ephesus. It speaks of the believers in that church.
Rev. 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Look at the whole letter. Hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Rev. 2
1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious,I will give the right to eat from the tree of life,which is in the paradise of God.
37818
Well-Known Member
False.
Because the individual, the Messenger is being told his faults.
. . . Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. . . .
. . . thou . . . thee . . . thy . . . thou . . . .
The candlestick is the church the Messenger Pastor's.
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Scripture says angel or messenger of the church, not pastor.
No book or letter of the New Testament is ever addressed to a pastor.
Repentance simply refers to an individual changing his or her mind and turning from a self directed life to a God directed life. I does NOT result automatically in any response by God.
Act 20:21 Interpretive Translation
solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance into (eis) God and faith into (eis) our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse teaches the lost can repent of their own accord and do not need to be enabled by irresistible or prevenient grace. It does NOT teach that if we repent and put our faith in Christ we will "automatically" enter into Christ. That action, to transfer sinners out of being in the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son is done by God alone, if and when He chooses to credit the person's faith as righteousness.
Acts 11:18 Interpretive Translation
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has also granted (allowed) to the Gentiles the repentance into (eis) life.”
To grant repentance into life means for God to allow the person to repent and believe. The alternate action would be to harden the person's heart such that they would be unable to repent and believe. The verse does NOT teach God causes repentance and belief by irresistible or prevenient grace.
2 Corinthians 7:10 Interpretive Translation
For the sorrow that is according to God produces repentance without regret, into (eis) salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
When a person repents which is according to God, the repentance does not result in regret for giving up any treasured person or thing. And repentance which is according to God results in salvation by being transferred into Christ, undergoing the washing of regeneration, and then being indwelt, such that the person is "in Christ" and Christ is in them. OTOH, if the person is sorry for the loss of any prior treasure, rather than considering it all dung, no salvation results.
I could go on but it would be pointless, when we undergo "sanctification by the Spirit" that refers to God setting the person apart in Christ. Repentance and faith that results in God transferring the person into Christ is "repentance into sanctification." Scripture teaches no other meaning.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Hi Van. Well, you’ve shifted the discussion away from the point I raised. My post was not about defining repentance according to your system. It was about the biblical distinction between repentance unto salvation and repentance in sanctification. Your reply does not address that distinction at all.
You redefined repentance as “turning from a self‑directed life to a God‑directed life,” but Scripture does not use that definition. Scripture uses repentance in more than one category, and the category is determined by the context.
Repentance unto salvation Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18, and 2 Corinthians 7:10 all speak of repentance connected with conversion, regeneration, and life. This repentance is once‑for‑all, completed at salvation.
Repentance in sanctification Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, and 1 John 1:9 speak to believers who are already saved, already indwelt, already in Christ. These passages command ongoing repentance in the believer’s walk. This repentance is not conversion; it is correction, restoration, and fellowship.
Your post #7 did not address repentance in sanctification. It only outlined your three categories of sanctification. But the question I raised was not “What is sanctification?” It was “Does Scripture distinguish repentance in salvation from repentance in sanctification?” And it does.
You can redefine repentance according to your theological system, but that does not change the fact that Scripture uses the term in more than one category. My point stands: repentance unto salvation is once‑for‑all, and repentance in sanctification is ongoing. Lordship Salvation conflates these categories; Scripture does not.
Yours in Him.
Tony
1) I cited Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18 and 2 Corinthians 7:10 because you listed them. Here is what you said: "Scripture presents repentance unto salvation as once‑for‑all (Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18, 2 Corinthians 7:10), and repentance in sanctification as ongoing (Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, 1 John 1:9)." So I did not shift "the discussion away from the point."
2) If you had just listed the last three, I would have addressed them.
3) Revelation 2:5 addresses "the angel of the church at Ephesus." Thus it is a message not to any individual, but to the church in general. They have been operating effectively in some areas, but not in the one area addressed, the church has left its first love. The members need to do the deeds they did at first. Thus the church needs to repent, and return to its first love. This fits progressive sanctification, "where we strive to follow Christ as our Lord, and earn rewards if our ministry yields eternal results - contributes to the saving of souls." I think "first love" refers to evangelism.
4) Revelation 31:9 again refers to those who have strayed from Christ's paths of righteousness, and are to respond to Christ's loving discipline and rebuke by returning to the lordship of Christ. Again, this addresses progressive sanctification.
5) 1 John 1:9, address that we are commanded to "confess our sins." This entails self-evaluation, where we consider our walk with Christ and admit where we stumble and deviate from the will of God. This is key to progressive sanctification, unless we recognize where we miss the mark, we will not see any need to repent and turn from that sort of behavior.
6) In summary, both concepts were indeed addressed in post #7.
Anthony Pritchard
Well-Known Member
Van, you’re still not addressing the distinction I raised. You’re explaining what you think those passages mean, but you’re not addressing the category difference between repentance in salvation and repentance in sanctification.
Let me restate the issue clearly.
1. You did not address the distinction.
You explained Acts 20:21, Acts 11:18, and 2 Corinthians 7:10 according to your definition of repentance. But the point I raised was not about your definition. It was about the category Scripture places those passages in: repentance connected with conversion, regeneration, and life.That is repentance unto salvation.
2. You also did not address the category of repentance in sanctification.
You explained Revelation 2:5, Revelation 3:19, and 1 John 1:9 as “progressive sanctification,” but that is simply restating your system. It does not address the fact that these passages speak to people who are already saved, already indwelt, already in Christ.That is repentance in sanctification.
3. The issue is not whether you can interpret the passages.
The issue is whether Scripture uses repentance in more than one category. It does. You can redefine repentance according to your theological system, but that does not change the fact that Scripture uses the term differently depending on context.4. Your post #7 did not address the distinction.
You outlined your three categories of sanctification, but that was not the question. The question was:Does Scripture distinguish repentance in salvation from repentance in sanctification?
And it does.
My point stands:
- Repentance unto salvation is once‑for‑all.
- Repentance in sanctification is ongoing.
- Lordship Salvation conflates these categories; Scripture does not.