Have You Ever Attended...

[Armchair Apologist]

I have no problem with an Altar call - my beef is "1-2-3- repeat after me"!

Let me make it clear that I was not speaking against the "altar call" per se. My primary objection was with those who make it a major point of contention and as a "test of orthodoxy." Altar calls can be effective if employed in a correct and scriptural manner.

 

[Jerome]

Oh brother.

"Oh, that the unconverted among you may be moved to pray. Before you leave this place, breathe an earnest prayer to God, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner. Lord, I need to be saved. Save me. I call upon thy name.' Join with me in prayer at this moment, I entreat you. Join with me while I put words into your mouths, and speak them on your behalf—'Lord, I am guilty. I deserve thy wrath. Lord I cannot save myself. Lord, I would have a new heart and a right spirit, but what can I do? Lord, I can do nothing, come and work in me to will and to do of thy good pleasure.
♪ Thou alone hast power, I know,
♪ To save a wretch like me;
♪ To whom, or whither should I go
♪ If I should turn from thee?
But I now do from my very soul call upon thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of thy dear Son; I trust thy mercy, and thy love, and thy power, as they are revealed in him. I dare to lay hold upon this word of thine, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Lord, save me tonight, for Jesus' sake. Amen'."
---Charles Spurgeon, "A Free Grace Promise" (1888)

 

[Cathode]

As a Baptist, have you ever attended a Catholic church service? If so, what was your take on it?
Joe

I’ve attended a Catholic Church service, found it to be the Apostolic worship of God.

OK, this is where I have to come down on the "Other Side" here!

The so-called "Altar Call" is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is largely a construct of the "Revivalism" of the Second Great Awakening. I am not saying it is unscriptural or that it should never be employed but I am saying that it has been been misused in order to bring about an emotionally driven response that may or may not have any actual spiritual implications (regeneration, true repentance, etc.).

The main purpose of a so-called "Altar Call" is to drive home a specific application of the message that has been delivered and there are many different ways in which such can be done (aside from walking the aisle) which includes challenging the congregation right where they are sitting (or standing) to "examine themselves," to be more diligent in "loving their neighbor" and being a better husband and father and so forth. I have seen Catholic priests do just this quite often.

I know you are speaking of the "Altar Call" as an invitation to "Trust Christ" but once again, you do not need to "walk an aisle" in order to do so. If the gospel message is plainly preached, the Holy Spirit will perform His work right where they are. A pastor may also instruct those concerned with their salvation to come and see him or one of the other pastors, elders, or deacons after the service. Catholics and Baptists have some fundamental differences in their understanding of the gospel but this is besides the point.

Now you are correct in that our salvation is "permanent" but most Catholics would say the same thing as well but the scriptures are quite clear that you must CONTINUE (perservere) in this salvation meaning that you are walking in a NEW LIFE and that Christ is working in you both to will and do of his good pleasure! Our salvation is not some one-time Ron Popei "Set it and Forget it" prayer that we prayed once upon a time to "ask Jesus into our hearts" and I can appreciate the contempt that many Catholics have towards such a notion! A genuine conversion brings about repentance and faith where one becomes a "New Creature" with a "New Life" and a "New Song" of which many shall see and fear and shall trust in the Lord! And yes, a genuine believer is genuinely and eternally secure in this salvation!

I guess I had better address this and my apologies for the long-windedness but the primary difference between Roman Catholics and Baptists (and other Evangelical Christians) is in their view of justification and mainly how sanctification works with this. A Catholic would likely cite James in order to remind a Protestant that "Faith without works is dead" and they would be right. However, they are wrong in their application of this passage by insisting that a believer must "work" in order to justify (prove) their faith. This is the entire jist of the Reformation whereby Martin Luther declared "The Just shall live by Faith!"

The Roman Catholic view of Faith and Works is as follows: Faith + Works = Justification

The Biblical view of Faith and Works is: Faith = Justification + Works (Eph 2:8-10)

Meaning that we are justified by faith alone but our faith is never alone!

Hopefull this is helpful and not just argumentative!

Faith + Love = justification

This would be a better way to put it.

Faith working through Love as Paul says it.

Love is good works.

Of the trinity of Faith, Hope and Love, Love is the greatest, but all three are inseparable for salvation.

I don’t care if you have faith enough to move mountains, without without Love you will amount to nothing.

We receive the free gift of faith by Grace to first believe, but we must also receive the daily ongoing Grace to Love others as our life progresses.

This is why Jesus says to remain in His Love, Faith without the good works of Love is dead.

Love is Jesus acting through you by daily Grace, not just believing. That is why is so very important not to only have faith but also Jesus loving through you.

 

[Cathode]

Two things are important to receive at the Mass, the preached word of God and The Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Himself in The Holy Eucharist.

The Holy Eucharist is the food of immortality, it is the power of resurrection, Jesus Himself.

Only Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life.

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day “

 

[GentleGospeller]

As a Baptist, have you ever attended a Catholic church service? If so, what was your take on it?
Joe

I am not a Baptist. I am an ex-Roman Catholic however. So I have attended literally hundreds of 'masses' and other Roman Catholic functions. However, since this thread is directed towards those that are "Baptist" I shall refrain from the second part of the question, until I have approval to share from the OP author.

 

[Cathode]

I am not a Baptist. I am an ex-Roman Catholic however. So I have attended literally hundreds of 'masses' and other Roman Catholic functions. However, since this thread is directed towards those that are "Baptist" I shall refrain from the second part of the question, until I have approval to share from the OP author.

Baptism is fundamental Christian belief.

 

[Novelist]

I am not a Baptist. I am an ex-Roman Catholic however. So I have attended literally hundreds of 'masses' and other Roman Catholic functions. However, since this thread is directed towards those that are "Baptist" I shall refrain from the second part of the question, until I have approval to share from the OP author.

As this post is directed toward me, the OP, I would like to hear your response to the second part of my question.
Joe

 

[Novelist]

I will attend a Catholic service tomorrow with my friend, but being that I disagree with about 99% of what they do, teach, and believe, I will just sit there, probably with a disgusted look on my face, and do nothing except look forward. I will not stand, sing, or recite. I will read along from my Bible when they read from the scriptures (I am always the only one in the building who actually brings a Bible) that contains 66 books and NOT 73 books as they believe.
Joe

 

[Cathode]

I will attend a Catholic service tomorrow with my friend, but being that I disagree with about 99% of what they do, teach, and believe, I will just sit there, probably with a disgusted look on my face, and do nothing except look forward. I will not stand, sing, or recite. I will read along from my Bible when they read from the scriptures (I am always the only one in the building who actually brings a Bible) that contains 66 books and NOT 73 books as they believe.
Joe

There will be the readings at the front door at Sunday Mass usually, take a copy as you go in.
The scripture readings for that Mass are all laid out to read from.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Baptism is fundamental Christian belief.

Yes, I understand that, and have actually been baptized (fully immersed in water) as an adult. I was speaking about not being a denominated 'Baptist'.

 

[Novelist]

There will be the readings at the front door at Sunday Mass usually, take a copy as you go in.
The scripture readings for that Mass are all laid out to read from.

I know that, but I prefer to read along from my own Bible.
Joe

 

[Novelist]

Yes, I understand that, and have actually been baptized (fully immersed in water) as an adult. I was speaking about not being a denominated 'Baptist'.

Baptism by full emersion is the only acceptable form of baptism. Sprinkling or pouring is not acceptable. How can one be risen from a pour or a sprinkle? Baptism is acceptable only after a person has been saved, not before, and it is not for babies but only for believing saved persons.
Joe

 

[Cathode]

Baptism by full emersion is the only acceptable form of baptism. Sprinkling or pouring is not acceptable. How can one be risen from a pour or a sprinkle? Baptism is acceptable only after a person has been saved, not before, and it is not for babies but only for believing saved persons.
Joe

Never understood why it matters if people don’t believe baptism actually does anything.

Perhaps someone could explain this to me?

 

[GentleGospeller]

As this post is directed toward me, the OP, I would like to hear your response to the second part of my question.
Joe

Ok, thank you for letting me know.

A Roman Catholic 'Mass' will vary slightly depending on the season (like 'Lent', 'Advent', 'Easter', 'Ordinary Time', &c.), the location (country (u.S. or in Rome or Africa, South America, &c.), and building, whether Cathedral or not) and several other factors, such as 'High' or 'Low', 'Tridentine', 'Latin', 'English', &c.

The gatherings are generally cordial and orderly with Ushers doing their part to seated locations in pews (long rows, normally) with kneeling areas (sometimes), and there is often a 'Cantor' leading the singing, and other refrains, and sometimes a choir (could be of monks, nuns, &c.). There is generally areas for specific prayers before candle-lit altars, and places on the walls for images / icons, crucifixes, stations of the Cross, &c. In the view at the front will be the main altar behind which is the 'tabernacle', "Ciborium", &c. in which the 'host / eucharist' is kept, and is lighted when the 'presence' is there.

There will be 'liturgy' (actions / functions) of the bishop, assisting priests, altar boys / girls, &c. which will often include the audience as well in kneeling, standing, praying, singing, welcoming, lining up to receive the 'elements' ('bread' & 'wine' outwardly in appearance but said to be 'transformed' into the 'body, blood, soul and divinity' of the LORD Jesus upon consecration by the presiding leadership).

There will be various readings, generally one reading from the OT books, one reading from the Psalms, one reading from the NT Epistles, and one reading from the Gospels, which more or less, align to a thematic overview, and in my opinion is the better part of the service. Generally following those things, the presiding leadership will usually expound upon the central theme of those readings as is done in most other denominations.

Other places, such as the auricular confessional booth / box are present as well, and oft times other rooms, for infants, or catechumen / initiates, etc take place. In larger places there is usually an organ played, or simple choir singing.

There is repetition by the congregation in certain respects, and set times for 'Amen', 'and also with you', or a 'Kyrie eleison', at each 'Mass'.

There will often be stained glass windows of various 'God', 'Jesus', "holy Spirit', 'angels', 'saints' or 'events' in scripture or 'history' presented, or frescoes or paintings of such.

If the place is a an actual dedicated Cathedral (Place of the Chair / Seat / Throne), it will also have a specific relic (bone, blood, hair, wood, &c) in it, in, at or under the main alter, as well as have dead corpses buried in it. Some Cathedrals, as in Europe, are open floored and have no major seating as such, and is for standing, kneeling only.

There are good and bad elements to it.

 

[GentleGospeller]

Baptism by full emersion is the only acceptable form of baptism. Sprinkling or pouring is not acceptable. How can one be risen from a pour or a sprinkle? Baptism is acceptable only after a person has been saved, not before, and it is not for babies but only for believing saved persons.
Joe

Yes, understand. Pouring is called "infusion" by the Catholic Church, and Sprinkling is called "aspersion" by the same. There are also other methods that people are using in modern times which are also not full immersion in water, such as having glitter dumped on them, hand-waving around them, bathing in music, &c.

 

[Novelist]

Never understood why it matters if people don’t believe baptism actually does anything.

Perhaps someone could explain this to me?

Matthew 3:15

 

[Novelist]

Yes, understand. Pouring is called "infusion" by the Catholic Church, and Sprinkling is called "aspersion" by the same. There are also other methods that people are using in modern times which are also not full immersion in water, such as having glitter dumped on them, hand-waving around them, bathing in music, &c.

So, are you saying that pouring and sprinkling are acceptable (which they are not) forms of baptism?
Joe

 

[Novelist]

Ok, thank you for letting me know.

A Roman Catholic 'Mass' will vary slightly depending on the season (like 'Lent', 'Advent', 'Easter', 'Ordinary Time', &c.), the location (country (u.S. or in Rome or Africa, South America, &c.), and building, whether Cathedral or not) and several other factors, such as 'High' or 'Low', 'Tridentine', 'Latin', 'English', &c.

The gatherings are generally cordial and orderly with Ushers doing their part to seated locations in pews (long rows, normally) with kneeling areas (sometimes), and there is often a 'Cantor' leading the singing, and other refrains, and sometimes a choir (could be of monks, nuns, &c.). There is generally areas for specific prayers before candle-lit altars, and places on the walls for images / icons, crucifixes, stations of the Cross, &c. In the view at the front will be the main altar behind which is the 'tabernacle', "Ciborium", &c. in which the 'host / eucharist' is kept, and is lighted when the 'presence' is there.

There will be 'liturgy' (actions / functions) of the bishop, assisting priests, altar boys / girls, &c. which will often include the audience as well in kneeling, standing, praying, singing, welcoming, lining up to receive the 'elements' ('bread' & 'wine' outwardly in appearance but said to be 'transformed' into the 'body, blood, soul and divinity' of the LORD Jesus upon consecration by the presiding leadership).

There will be various readings, generally one reading from the OT books, one reading from the Psalms, one reading from the NT Epistles, and one reading from the Gospels, which more or less, align to a thematic overview, and in my opinion is the better part of the service. Generally following those things, the presiding leadership will usually expound upon the central theme of those readings as is done in most other denominations.

Other places, such as the auricular confessional booth / box are present as well, and oft times other rooms, for infants, or catechumen / initiates, etc take place. In larger places there is usually an organ played, or simple choir singing.

There is repetition by the congregation in certain respects, and set times for 'Amen', 'and also with you', or a 'Kyrie eleison', at each 'Mass'.

There will often be stained glass windows of various 'God', 'Jesus', "holy Spirit', 'angels', 'saints' or 'events' in scripture or 'history' presented, or frescoes or paintings of such.

If the place is a an actual dedicated Cathedral (Place of the Chair / Seat / Throne), it will also have a specific relic (bone, blood, hair, wood, &c) in it, in, at or under the main alter, as well as have dead corpses buried in it. Some Cathedrals, as in Europe, are open floored and have no major seating as such, and is for standing, kneeling only.

There are good and bad elements to it.

The paintings I have seen in Catholic churches are wrong. Jesus is depicted as a blond haired blue eyed Swede, which he actually was not. He looked like any other middle eastern citizen of that time.
Joe

 

[Cathode]

The best Catholic depiction of Jesus is His burial shroud which captures the exact moment of His Resurrection.

 

[Cathode]

Matthew 3:15

So the mode matters, even if you don’t believe baptism does anything?

For us the formula matters because we believe baptism is regenerative.