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I Will Build My Church

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Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Actually, I think it does more than one time. First, the op makes the case that the choosing of the apostles was the beginning of the church because it is a called out assembly and is the time of the commissioning of the twelve apostles, though one was a devil. This logic comes, at least in part, by comparing Luke 6:13 with Ephesians 2;:20 where we have the building in it's three parts described as Jesus the cornerstone, the apostles & prophets the foundation, and the Jewish and gentile believers making up the super structure as living stones. Luke 6:13 tells us that Jesus choose 12 disciples there. The logic then says that since Jesus is the cornerstone and is present and the apostles are now chosen and both are in a local meeting, then this must be the beginning of the church, or at least the foundation of it and therefore establishes the church as always a local assembly of believers.

That logic breaks down rather quickly in light of a more thorough study. The church is not only shown to be an organization but a living organism While the building shows that Christ lives in it as the temple, the idea is that we are made alive IN HIM. This of course would include the foundation stones which were laid on the stone the builders rejected, the cornerstone of the church. Because of it's character it is called a new man in Christ and is a collective in nature. Local assemblies have unsaved members mixed in but the collective does not.

Jesus said in John 3:5 that any man entering into the kingdom of God must be born again in order to enter. I have not only showed where these apostles will be in the kingdom but they will sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. They were not born again in Lk 6 when they were chosen.
Again, with these men present Jesus said this to men of Israel in John 6:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

We are not to that place in the scriptures yet where believers dwell in him and he in them. It will require the shedding of his blood.

He says in John chapter 7 these words of clarification.
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).
This tells us that salvation comes only through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. This will include the apostles and all OT pre-cross believers.

Paul would say 58 years later these words;
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why does that matter?
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Somebody will say then, many people believed in Jesus before he was crucified, were they not saved. The answer is no, they were justified by faith and the Father, the judge of all the earth, counted their faith in believing what he said to them for righteousness but that did not clear them of their personal sins and save them. The blood of Jesus Christ is the only thing that can wash away our sins and when that happens we can have the Holy Spirit live in us. Without shedding of blood is no remission. He 9:22 All justified believers were declared innocent and without guilt by the Judge because they had faith and faith in the words of God is what is required for that but it takes the application of the blood of the Lamb to wash them away.

With that in mind compare these two passages to clarify:

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We know what the renewing of the Holy Ghost is but what is this washing of regeneration? Answer;

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

The apostles and the prophets received the Spirit and were regenerated on resurrection day as recorded in John 20 when Jesus breathed on them and imparted his Spirit to them. Israel, the people of God had the Spirit poured out on them in Acts 2 at Pentecost fifty days later. Ten years later the Spirit was poured out on the gentile world and since then every body in the world can open their hearts and drink him in and possess the gift of eternal life free of charge. This will be true til the end of this age.

This is wonderful truth and the church of Jesus Christ is built upon his death and burial and resurrection. and all glory to him for his wonderful grace of saving me.
JD, I’m going to stay on the specific point I raised. My question was about when Scripture says the church began, not about regeneration, justification, or the timing of the Spirit’s indwelling.

Those are important doctrines, but they are not the topic under discussion.

The issue is simple:

Does Scripture ever say the church began at the resurrection? No, it does not.

Christ said during His earthly ministry:

“I will build My church.”
And in Luke 6:13 He called, gathered, and named the apostles, the foundation stones (Eph. 2:20). That is the first constituted assembly under Christ’s authority. Nothing in the text ties the beginning of the church to the resurrection or Pentecost.

Your reply moves into regeneration, the Spirit’s indwelling, OT justification, and the application of the blood. Those are different categories. They do not answer the question I asked, and they do not establish a resurrection‑day beginning for the church.

So I’m keeping the discussion on the original point: Show me where Scripture says the church began at the resurrection. If the text does not say it, then it is not a biblical claim.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Actually, I think it does more than one time.
JD, I’m going to stay strictly on the point I made. I said Scripture never states that the church began at the resurrection. You replied, “Actually, I think it does more than one time.” If that is the case, then please show the verse.

Not a chain of theological deductions. Not a regeneration timeline. Not a discussion of when the Spirit was given. Not a contrast between justification and salvation. Not an argument about the apostles’ spiritual condition.

Those are different topics.

My statement was simple and textual:

Where does Scripture say the church began at the resurrection? If the text does not say it, then it is not a biblical claim.

Christ said during His earthly ministry:

“I will build My church.”


And in Luke 6:13 He called, gathered, and named the apostles, the foundation stones (Eph. 2:20). That is the first constituted assembly under Christ’s authority. Nothing in the text ties the beginning of the church to the resurrection.

So again, staying on the original point:

If Scripture says the church began at the resurrection, please cite the verse. If Scripture does not say it, then your claim is theological inference, not biblical statement.

I’m keeping the discussion on that single question.
 

Mike B

Member
Jesus said: Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

When Jesus would preach to the people, there were crowds gathered to listen and learn.
Some would believe and be saved, and some would not, but would return to hear Him again.
One of those who returned to hear more was Nicodemus. How is this so different from the
"church" we attend today?

I have not read the entire thread, however I would submit that the Church began with the ministry
of Jesus, and that work was continued by the apostles following Christ's ascension and Pentecost.
 
Last edited:

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
Jesus said: Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

When Jesus would preach to the people, there were crowds gathered to listen and learn.
Some would believe and be saved, and some would not, but would return to hear Him again.
One of those who returned to hear more was Nicodemus. How is this so different from the
"church" we attend today?

I have not read the entire thread, however I would submit that the Church began with the ministry
of Jesus, and that work was continued by the apostles following Christ's ascension and Pentecost.
Mike, I appreciate the support, but I want to stay on the specific point I raised regarding Luke 6:13. Matthew 18:20 is not a definition of a church. It is a promise of Christ’s presence in the context of discipline.

Matthew 18:20 is the concluding verse of a single unit, verses 15–20. It is not defining a church. It is Christ’s promise of His presence in the process of discipline.

The entire passage is one continuous instruction:
  • v.15 — private confrontation
  • v.16 — two or three witnesses
  • v.17 — tell it to the church
  • v.18 — authority to bind and loose
  • v.19 — agreement in prayer regarding discipline
  • v.20 — Christ present in that process
Verse 20 is not describing a church. It is describing Christ’s presence when two or three witnesses carry out discipline.

If “two or three gathered” were a definition of a church, then:
  • every Christian marriage,
  • every prayer meeting,
  • every Bible study,
  • every conversation between two believers
would automatically be “a church.”

Scripture never uses ekklesia that way.
 

Mike B

Member
Mike, I appreciate the support, but I want to stay on the specific point I raised regarding Luke 6:13. Matthew 18:20 is not a definition of a church. It is a promise of Christ’s presence in the context of discipline.

Understood, and thank you for clarifying the application of those verses. I should have read through
them more carefully for the context.

Having now read the entire thread, I'll just continue to follow along.
 
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