-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
When was Abraham justified?
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
B. If justification is being declared righteous by God, then if Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, the that was when justification occurred.
Hey Martin
What if the word "credited [with righteousness]" has a bigger meaning than we realize? They did continue with the Levitical sacrifices to cover sin according to the Law, which would be odd if they were already forgiven once for all. I'm thinking Hebrews 10:9 through...about verse twenty. The main focus on the putting away the first to establish the second. Also, Jesus did not sit at the right hand of the Father until He ascended, meaning He was glorified and His work was done.
Hebrews10:9-20 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
And Paul in ...
Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Does that make the credited righteousness of Abraham a promise not actually in effect yet? Thoughts?
You have switched from singular ("Abraham believed God etc.") to plural ("They did continue....").
I was speaking of no one else but Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 26:4-5; 28:13-14), certainly not of the bulk of national Israel, which certainly appears to have been devoid of grace (e.g. Numbers 14; Isaiah 1; Amos 5:6-12).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Abraham's justification, "being made righteous before God", occurred when every one of God's children were also actually made righteous...
At the cross, when they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5 ).
That Abraham was "justified" in Romans 4 ( "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness" ), and that believers are "justified by faith" ( Romans 5 ), I personally understand as "shown to be justified " within the context of his election, predestination, calling and so forth. Abraham is one of God's elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ), the same as any of us.
Election being God's choice of the sinner to salvation, all that follows after that is, in reality, evidential, not "conditional".
God acts, and the objects of His grace react, and show who they are by their actions:
Unbelievers, i.e. the children of the devil, show ( by their actions ) who they are every time they reject God's words and continue in their ways.
Believers, i.e. the children of God, show ( by their actions ), who they are when they believe, by the faith given to them , the Lord and His commands.
In other words, Abraham was shown to be justified ( made righteous before God ) when he believed God... and the Lord, looking upon His perfect gifts of the new birth in Abraham and the true faith that only comes from Him, credited His own work in Abraham as the righteous thing that it is.
To put it simply, when one of God's elect believes the Lord at His word, He is pleased by His own work in that person and, by extension, with that person. However, not a single one of us had any say in the matter...
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 )
But true justification? It's by His blood:
" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ).
It isn't a process one goes through and it isn't a reward for a person's actions; it was a one-time event that occurred roughly 2,000 years ago on a cross outside a little known city in one of the smallest nations on earth...
And it occurred for all of God's people.
Last edited:
Hi Martin
I was also only speaking of Abraham. Implied was that He is justified just like everyone else in the OT, by what Jesus did. So in that sense, it's everyone in the OT, right? I know Abraham never made sacrifices for sin, that was later.
If Abraham was justified in that moment, the moment that he first believed and was credited with righteousness, then all OT believers would have also been justified the moment that that they first believed, right?
Was Abraham justified a different way than all the rest of OT believers?
Dave
Hey Dave
Do you believe that every believer, including Abraham, was "in Christ" from the foundations of the word, even before they were dead in Adam?
Does that mean that Jesus is the first Adam? does that also mean that Jesus did not need to come in His incarnation, because if He died from the foundations of the world, then He also lived from the foundations of the world, as a man, perfectly righteous, and perfectly sinless (making His death a valid atonement). In fact, one could argue, that if the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world actually happened already, then everything happened already. And all that happens in time is just a means to justify an end.
Which begs the question, If we're "in Christ" from the foundations of the world, then we already have the blood, right?
Dabney's argument applies.
Dabney's Objections To The Supralapsarian
Objections To The Supralapsarian. But we object more particularly to the Supralapsarian scheme. (a) That it is erroneous in representing God as having before His mind, as the objects of predestination, men conceived in posse only; and in making creation a means of their salvation or damnation...
www.baptistboard.com
It's by faith that we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2
BTW, I agree that a person must be in Christ to be justified. But Abraham was not in Christ (no indwelling). The only time that could have happened was when Jesus descended, preaching to the spirits in prison. Then (having the keys to Hades and death) leading captivity captive, ascending to the right hand of the Father, and sitting, signifying that His work was done at that time. Was that also done at the foundations of the world?
Remember, Abraham died having not received the promises. They, OT heroes/believers, received them when the believers in the NT received them.
Hebrews 12:39-40 And all these (Heroes of faith), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Does the word "perfect" in that passage mean, or include in it's meaning, being justified?
John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Connect "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven" from John 3:13 with John 3:5, "Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
One must be 'in Christ' to be born again, right?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"In Christ" in the sense that they were created to be so, yes.
Even so, all men were created out of the same "clay", and all have inherited what Adam passed down to them...
Enmity with God in our very natures.
Yes, it is.
But remember, not all men have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
I see it as being a gift ( Ephesians 2 ), and is "of" Christ ( Galatians 2, Galatians 3, Romans 3 ). It is the "faith of Christ", not "of me".
Christ, who authored and finished that faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), then gave it to His people.
That very same supernatural faith is what we, as God's people, rely upon in this life;
We walk by that faith, not by ordinary human "faith".
In addition, I hold that for those who actually have the gift of faith, they are "entering in" to that grace experientially, not literally.
In other words, I don't see the Scriptures saying that we as men can enter in to God's grace by any action on our part...
Faith is a gift, not the means to achieving an end.
That is how I see salvation being entirely of the Lord, start to finish.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
I think of it like this:
According to what I see in God's word, not only was I created in Christ, I was not linked to Him in my spirit until I was born again and sealed with His indwelling ( Ephesians 1 ). Even though I am one of His elect and was never in danger of Hell fire, I was still the same in my nature as all of the children of Adam ( Ephesians 2 ).
I also see the Scriptures teaching God's miracle of the new birth coming before my belief, not after...for else, how would I have listened and truly been willing to receive God's words, if my mind was still at enmity with Him? Just as He did for Lydia, He did for me.
So, "in Christ" by election before the foundation of the world, and then in the course of my life, put "in Christ" spiritually during the time I heard the word of God in 1978.
God's love for me was always there, my friend.
He didn't wait for me to choose Him in order to save me ...
He chose me, and caused me to approach unto Him, just as the Scriptures tell me.
Last edited:
Hey Dave
OK good. I really don't like when people hold to that temporal argument. God may not be bound by time, but that does not override all time sensitive Scripture as they try to do.
Then we agree that Abraham's salvation was not a reality, because salvation/justification can only a reality when we're in Christ, and only after the cross, and only after the means to be placed into Christ was given, Namely, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Just a thought, but at this point it really doesn't matter if God chose and predestined some [from the foundations of the world], or used prevenient grace to all (albeit limited to the presence of God in the Temple and a few who had His Spirit upon them), and positively allowed and ordained mans choice [from the foundations of the world]. He's still sovereign over it and it will happen. I believe that the latter is Biblical.
Anyways, you believe that "from the foundations of the world" is speaking of an eternal decree, and should not be taken literally. Good.
Yep, Romans 5.
But the faith that is a gift is the life. And that life begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the result of believing.
In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?
The reason I'm asking is because the faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God" where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing, and not the initial faith. Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith...
www.baptistboard.com
I'll use scripture to paint the equation.
Romans 8:9-11. With the Spirit indwelling, life (what Jesus is the Author and Finisher of), without the Spirit indwelling, no life.
Now, believe, and receive the indwelling Spirit -- Ephesians 1:13-14, Galatians 3:2-3. It's a simple formula.
Hebrews 12:2, compare to Acts 3:15. "Faith" is also called "life". It's a metaphor for life. Prince/Author same thing.
Ephesians 2:8 see Romans 3:28. Our justification is a gift also. When we're indwelt. After we believe.
Anyways, Abraham could not have the indwelling Spirit. Which makes Romans 3 interpreted exactly like it sounds. There are/were none righteous, no not one. There are/were none who does good, no not one. Not without the Spirit could Abraham do good or be righteous by the standards of God's Holiness, even then, he could not justify himself. The fact that the imputed righteousness of Jesus was only in promise until the cross is evidenced by the fact that Abraham could not even be in the presence of God until after Jesus finished His work John 3:13-14, Hebrews (11:39-40).
It's by faith that we enter into that life/grace. Romans 5:1-2
If you have the Spirit indwelling, you are "in Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That same baptism that places us into Christ makes us born again. To say it another way, that same Spirit baptism that places us into Christ, also places us into His death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11). Making us die with Him (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with him (Ephesians 2:6), born again. If you were created "in Christ", you were never in Adam, and you were created born again (which you wouldn't need to be), and linked to Him in Spirit, indwelt. It's faith that links us to Christ, making us "in Him". Do you see the significance of saying that you're created "in Him"?
Show me one passage that says the man must be born again to believe.
So you were not created "in Christ" (unless you meant after conversion). It was faith that placed you in Him. It was by faith that you entered into that grace.
He loved the whole world, you included. He said so.
But He did. You can't be saved unless you are "in Him". You are placed "in Him" with the indwelling Holy Spirit. We receive the indwelling Holy spirit, the life, after we believe.
Abraham had to wait, like all the heroes of faith.
In case you didn't figure it out, I think that "D" is the correct answer.
He chose me, and caused me to approach unto Him, just as the Scriptures tell me.
He draws the whole world, including you. John 12:32
BTW, "the faith of Christ". Lets get into that.
The idea is that's it's Christ's faith, and not ours, right? And it actually is a faith that is a gift, so literally, it's His faith.....But we must understand the context of that statement, for without that context, we would end up with one of the greatest errors of Calvinism. The "faith" of Christ, that's just another way of saying the life, the faith, it's all of God. But that faith/life/grace/gift from God is what we receive after we receive the indwelling Spirit, who is the life, who is Jesus, who is grace, whose "faith", in that context is a gift. But all of that is the result of our first believing.
If you look closely, it's all there. Very clearly also. All of it fits together. Remember, with the indwelling we have this...
Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The indwelling Spirit is the life, the grace that we enter into, the faith that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of, the gift from God. We receive the indwelling when?.....
Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Galatians 3:2-3)
When did we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2? After we believe, by faith. Then we receive the faith called life as a result of the indwelling.
The idea is that's it's Christ's faith, and not ours, right? And it actually is a faith that is a gift, so literally, it's His faith.....But
we must understand the context of that statement, for without that context, we would end up with one of the greatest errors of Calvinism. The "faith" of Christ, that's just another way of saying the life, the faith, it's all of God. But that faith/life/grace/gift from God is what we receive after we receive the indwelling Spirit, who is the life, who is Jesus, who is grace, whose "faith", in that context is a gift. But all of that is the result of our first believing.If you look closely, it's all there. Very clearly also. All of it fits together. Remember, with the indwelling we have this...
Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The indwelling Spirit is the life, the grace that we enter into, the faith that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of, the gift from God. We receive the indwelling when?.....
Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Galatians 3:2-3)
When did we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2? After we believe, by faith. Then we receive the faith called life as a result of the indwelling.