When was Abraham justified?

[Dave...]

A) The foundations of the world.

B) When his faith was credited as righteous.

C) When Jesus died on the cross.

D) When Jesus descended and preached to the spirits in prison, then ascending, leading captivity captive.

E) Other

 

[Martin Marprelate]

B. If justification is being declared righteous by God, then if Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, the that was when justification occurred.

 

[Dave...]

B. If justification is being declared righteous by God, then if Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, the that was when justification occurred.

Hey Martin

What if the word "credited [with righteousness]" has a bigger meaning than we realize? They did continue with the Levitical sacrifices to cover sin according to the Law, which would be odd if they were already forgiven once for all. I'm thinking Hebrews 10:9 through...about verse twenty. The main focus on the putting away the first to establish the second. Also, Jesus did not sit at the right hand of the Father until He ascended, meaning He was glorified and His work was done.

Hebrews10:9-20 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

And Paul in ...

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Does that make the credited righteousness of Abraham a promise not actually in effect yet? Thoughts?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hey Martin

What if the word "credited [with righteousness]" has a bigger meaning than we realize? They did continue with the Levitical sacrifices to cover sin according to the Law, which would be odd if they were already forgiven once for all.

You have switched from singular ("Abraham believed God etc.") to plural ("They did continue....").
I was speaking of no one else but Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 26:4-5; 28:13-14), certainly not of the bulk of national Israel, which certainly appears to have been devoid of grace (e.g. Numbers 14; Isaiah 1; Amos 5:6-12).

 

[Dave G]

C) When Jesus died on the cross.

Abraham's justification, "being made righteous before God", occurred when every one of God's children were also actually made righteous...
At the cross, when they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5 ).

That Abraham was "justified" in Romans 4 ( "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness" ), and that believers are "justified by faith" ( Romans 5 ), I personally understand as "shown to be justified " within the context of his election, predestination, calling and so forth. Abraham is one of God's elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ), the same as any of us.

Election being God's choice of the sinner to salvation, all that follows after that is, in reality, evidential, not "conditional".
God acts, and the objects of His grace react, and show who they are by their actions:

Unbelievers, i.e. the children of the devil, show ( by their actions ) who they are every time they reject God's words and continue in their ways.
Believers, i.e. the children of God, show ( by their actions ), who they are when they believe, by the faith given to them , the Lord and His commands.

In other words, Abraham was shown to be justified ( made righteous before God ) when he believed God... and the Lord, looking upon His perfect gifts of the new birth in Abraham and the true faith that only comes from Him, credited His own work in Abraham as the righteous thing that it is.

To put it simply, when one of God's elect believes the Lord at His word, He is pleased by His own work in that person and, by extension, with that person. However, not a single one of us had any say in the matter...
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 )


But true justification? It's by His blood:
" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ).

It isn't a process one goes through and it isn't a reward for a person's actions; it was a one-time event that occurred roughly 2,000 years ago on a cross outside a little known city in one of the smallest nations on earth...

And it occurred for all of God's people.

 

[Dave...]

You have switched from singular ("Abraham believed God etc.") to plural ("They did continue....").
I was speaking of no one else but Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 26:4-5; 28:13-14), certainly not of the bulk of national Israel, which certainly appears to have been devoid of grace (e.g. Numbers 14; Isaiah 1; Amos 5:6-12).

Hi Martin

I was also only speaking of Abraham. Implied was that He is justified just like everyone else in the OT, by what Jesus did. So in that sense, it's everyone in the OT, right? I know Abraham never made sacrifices for sin, that was later.

If Abraham was justified in that moment, the moment that he first believed and was credited with righteousness, then all OT believers would have also been justified the moment that that they first believed, right?

Was Abraham justified a different way than all the rest of OT believers?

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Abraham's justification, "being made righteous before God", occurred when every one of God's children were also actually made righteous...
At the cross, when they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5 ).

That Abraham was "justified" in Romans 4 ( "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness" ), and that believers are "justified by faith" ( Romans 5 ), I personally understand as "shown to be justified " within the context of his election, predestination, calling and so forth. Abraham is one of God's elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ), the same as any of us.

Election being God's choice of the sinner to salvation, all that follows after that is, in reality, evidential, not "conditional".
God acts, and the objects of His grace react, and show who they are by their actions:

Unbelievers, i.e. the children of the devil, show ( by their actions ) who they are every time they reject God's words and continue in their ways.
Believers, i.e. the children of God, show ( by their actions ), who they are when they believe, by the faith given to them , the Lord and His commands.

In other words, Abraham was shown to be justified ( made righteous before God ) when he believed God... and the Lord, looking upon His perfect gifts of the new birth in Abraham and the true faith that only comes from Him, credited His own work in Abraham as the righteous thing that it is.

To put it simply, when one of God's elect believes the Lord at His word, He is pleased by His own work in that person and, by extension, with that person. However, not a single one of us had any say in the matter...
" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 )


But true justification? It's by His blood:
" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ).

It isn't a process one goes through and it isn't a reward for a person's actions; it was a one-time event that occurred roughly 2,000 years ago on a cross outside a little known city in one of the smallest nations on earth...

And it occurred for all of God's people.

Hey Dave

Do you believe that every believer, including Abraham, was "in Christ" from the foundations of the word, even before they were dead in Adam?

Does that mean that Jesus is the first Adam? does that also mean that Jesus did not need to come in His incarnation, because if He died from the foundations of the world, then He also lived from the foundations of the world, as a man, perfectly righteous, and perfectly sinless (making His death a valid atonement). In fact, one could argue, that if the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world actually happened already, then everything happened already. And all that happens in time is just a means to justify an end.

Which begs the question, If we're "in Christ" from the foundations of the world, then we already have the blood, right?

Dabney's argument applies.

Dabney's Objections To The Supralapsarian

Objections To The Supralapsarian. But we object more particularly to the Supralapsarian scheme. (a) That it is erroneous in representing God as having before His mind, as the objects of predestination, men conceived in posse only; and in making creation a means of their salvation or damnation...

www.baptistboard.com

It's by faith that we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2

BTW, I agree that a person must be in Christ to be justified. But Abraham was not in Christ (no indwelling). The only time that could have happened was when Jesus descended, preaching to the spirits in prison. Then (having the keys to Hades and death) leading captivity captive, ascending to the right hand of the Father, and sitting, signifying that His work was done at that time. Was that also done at the foundations of the world?

Remember, Abraham died having not received the promises. They, OT heroes/believers, received them when the believers in the NT received them.

Hebrews 12:39-40 And all these (Heroes of faith), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Does the word "perfect" in that passage mean, or include in it's meaning, being justified?

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Connect "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven" from John 3:13 with John 3:5, "Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

One must be 'in Christ' to be born again, right?

 

[Dave G]

Do you believe that every believer, including Abraham, was "in Christ" from the foundations of the word, even before they were dead in Adam?

"In Christ" in the sense that they were created to be so, yes.
Even so, all men were created out of the same "clay", and all have inherited what Adam passed down to them...

Enmity with God in our very natures.

It's by faith that we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2

Yes, it is.
But remember, not all men have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
I see it as being a gift ( Ephesians 2 ), and is "of" Christ ( Galatians 2, Galatians 3, Romans 3 ). It is the "faith of Christ", not "of me".
Christ, who authored and finished that faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), then gave it to His people.
That very same supernatural faith is what we, as God's people, rely upon in this life;
We walk by that faith, not by ordinary human "faith".

In addition, I hold that for those who actually have the gift of faith, they are "entering in" to that grace experientially, not literally.
In other words, I don't see the Scriptures saying that we as men can enter in to God's grace by any action on our part...
Faith is a gift, not the means to achieving an end.


That is how I see salvation being entirely of the Lord, start to finish.

 

[Dave G]

One must be 'in Christ' to be born again, right?

Absolutely.
I think of it like this:

According to what I see in God's word, not only was I created in Christ, I was not linked to Him in my spirit until I was born again and sealed with His indwelling ( Ephesians 1 ). Even though I am one of His elect and was never in danger of Hell fire, I was still the same in my nature as all of the children of Adam ( Ephesians 2 ).

I also see the Scriptures teaching God's miracle of the new birth coming before my belief, not after...for else, how would I have listened and truly been willing to receive God's words, if my mind was still at enmity with Him? Just as He did for Lydia, He did for me.

So, "in Christ" by election before the foundation of the world, and then in the course of my life, put "in Christ" spiritually during the time I heard the word of God in 1978.

God's love for me was always there, my friend.

He didn't wait for me to choose Him in order to save me ...
He chose me, and caused me to approach unto Him, just as the Scriptures tell me.

 

[Dave...]

"In Christ" in the sense that they were created to be so, yes.
Even so, all men were created out of the same "clay", and all have inherited what Adam passed down to them...

Hey Dave

OK good. I really don't like when people hold to that temporal argument. God may not be bound by time, but that does not override all time sensitive Scripture as they try to do.

Then we agree that Abraham's salvation was not a reality, because salvation/justification can only a reality when we're in Christ, and only after the cross, and only after the means to be placed into Christ was given, Namely, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Just a thought, but at this point it really doesn't matter if God chose and predestined some [from the foundations of the world], or used prevenient grace to all (albeit limited to the presence of God in the Temple and a few who had His Spirit upon them), and positively allowed and ordained mans choice [from the foundations of the world]. He's still sovereign over it and it will happen. I believe that the latter is Biblical.

Anyways, you believe that "from the foundations of the world" is speaking of an eternal decree, and should not be taken literally. Good.

Enmity with God in our very natures.

Yep, Romans 5.

Yes, it is.
But remember, not all men have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
I see it as being a gift ( Ephesians 2 ), and is "of" Christ ( Galatians 2, Galatians 3, Romans 3 ). It is the "faith of Christ", not "of me".
Christ, who authored and finished that faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), then gave it to His people.
That very same supernatural faith is what we, as God's people, rely upon in this life;
We walk by that faith, not by ordinary human "faith".

In addition, I hold that for those who actually have the gift of faith, they are "entering in" to that grace experientially, not literally.
In other words, I don't see the Scriptures saying that we as men can enter in to God's grace by any action on our part...
Faith is a gift, not the means to achieving an end.


That is how I see salvation being entirely of the Lord, start to finish.

But the faith that is a gift is the life. And that life begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is the result of believing.

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

The reason I'm asking is because the faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God" where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing, and not the initial faith. Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith...

www.baptistboard.com

I'll use scripture to paint the equation.

Romans 8:9-11. With the Spirit indwelling, life (what Jesus is the Author and Finisher of), without the Spirit indwelling, no life.

Now, believe, and receive the indwelling Spirit -- Ephesians 1:13-14, Galatians 3:2-3. It's a simple formula.

Hebrews 12:2, compare to Acts 3:15. "Faith" is also called "life". It's a metaphor for life. Prince/Author same thing.

Ephesians 2:8 see Romans 3:28. Our justification is a gift also. When we're indwelt. After we believe.

Anyways, Abraham could not have the indwelling Spirit. Which makes Romans 3 interpreted exactly like it sounds. There are/were none righteous, no not one. There are/were none who does good, no not one. Not without the Spirit could Abraham do good or be righteous by the standards of God's Holiness, even then, he could not justify himself. The fact that the imputed righteousness of Jesus was only in promise until the cross is evidenced by the fact that Abraham could not even be in the presence of God until after Jesus finished His work John 3:13-14, Hebrews (11:39-40).

It's by faith that we enter into that life/grace. Romans 5:1-2

 

[Dave...]

Absolutely.
I think of it like this:

According to what I see in God's word, not only was I created in Christ, I was not linked to Him in my spirit until I was born again and sealed with His indwelling ( Ephesians 1 ). Even though I am one of His elect and was never in danger of Hell fire, I was still the same in my nature as all of the children of Adam ( Ephesians 2 ).

If you have the Spirit indwelling, you are "in Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That same baptism that places us into Christ makes us born again. To say it another way, that same Spirit baptism that places us into Christ, also places us into His death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11). Making us die with Him (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with him (Ephesians 2:6), born again. If you were created "in Christ", you were never in Adam, and you were created born again (which you wouldn't need to be), and linked to Him in Spirit, indwelt. It's faith that links us to Christ, making us "in Him". Do you see the significance of saying that you're created "in Him"?

I also see the Scriptures teaching God's miracle of the new birth coming before my belief, not after...for else, how would I have listened and truly been willing to receive God's words, if my mind was still at enmity with Him? Just as He did for Lydia, He did for me.

Show me one passage that says the man must be born again to believe.

So, "in Christ" by election before the foundation of the world, and then in the course of my life, put "in Christ" spiritually during the time I heard the word of God in 1978.

So you were not created "in Christ" (unless you meant after conversion). It was faith that placed you in Him. It was by faith that you entered into that grace.

God's love for me was always there, my friend.

He loved the whole world, you included. He said so.

He didn't wait for me to choose Him in order to save me ...

But He did. You can't be saved unless you are "in Him". You are placed "in Him" with the indwelling Holy Spirit. We receive the indwelling Holy spirit, the life, after we believe.

Abraham had to wait, like all the heroes of faith.

In case you didn't figure it out, I think that "D" is the correct answer.

He chose me, and caused me to approach unto Him, just as the Scriptures tell me.

He draws the whole world, including you. John 12:32

 

[Dave...]

BTW, "the faith of Christ". Lets get into that.

The idea is that's it's Christ's faith, and not ours, right? And it actually is a faith that is a gift, so literally, it's His faith.....But we must understand the context of that statement, for without that context, we would end up with one of the greatest errors of Calvinism. The "faith" of Christ, that's just another way of saying the life, the faith, it's all of God. But that faith/life/grace/gift from God is what we receive after we receive the indwelling Spirit, who is the life, who is Jesus, who is grace, whose "faith", in that context is a gift. But all of that is the result of our first believing.

If you look closely, it's all there. Very clearly also. All of it fits together. Remember, with the indwelling we have this...

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The indwelling Spirit is the life, the grace that we enter into, the faith that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of, the gift from God. We receive the indwelling when?.....

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Galatians 3:2-3)

When did we enter into that grace Romans 5:1-2? After we believe, by faith. Then we receive the faith called life as a result of the indwelling.

 

[Dave...]

I believe that it's Jesus Who was elect from the foundations of the world. We become elect with Him [from the foundations of the world] when we are placed into Him spiritually as a result of believing and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we're literally "in Him" from the foundations of the world, then Adam did not need to be created, and Jesus is our first Adam. We would not need faith to be saved because we're already in Him. We would only need to wait for the ingredients, and consequently, those too would have also already happened from the foundations of the world. But, we're elected from a position of guilt, not a neutral, as Dabney so eloquently noted in his argument against supralapsarianism earlier in post #7.

So, this is where I stand. Nobody was placed into Jesus until the birth of the church, Pentecost, when the first believers were placed into Him. So nobody was elect [with Jesus] before that. God knew, from the foundations of the world, but it had to play out in time to become reality. Here, in Ephesians 1, "predestine" is another matter, but the same thinking. When we're placed into Christ, we're placed into that election who is the predestinated "way". "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life". With emphasis on "the Way". In other words, it's the "way" that is predestined. We become predestined, elect, when we're "in Him".

Look closely, it's the means or the way that can easily be interpreted as predestined in Ephesians 1:5 below.

"having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

1 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

You have two choices, either we're "in Him" and saved from the foundations of the world, and all the questions then apply, like Dabney's objections, --or--, this is speaking of Jesus being the "way" only, and we're allowed to partake in this when we're placed "in Him". I think that Scripture leaves only one true option. Here's one example...

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

 

[Dave...]

In Hebrews 6:14-20, Abraham received the promise in type, Isaac, but not the spiritual realization of it in Jesus.

A very profound statement here in Galatians 3

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4:14 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[Dave...]

Understanding the Contrast of “Law” and “Promise” in Galatians 3

Understanding the Contrast of “Law” and “Promise” in Galatians 3

Understanding the Contrast of “Law” and “Promise” in Galatians 3.

www.paramountchurch.com

I stumbled across this link when pondering the idea that the word "faith" in Scripture is used to mean so many different things, like initially believing, and it's also a metaphor for spiritual life (The ongoing faith, Hebrews 12:2), and many times it's used to contrast the OT to the NT, or Law and grace, or the Law and the Gospel. I thought this distinction between the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants brings out the true meaning of what Paul was saying with more clarity. A quote from the article...

"So we have two principles or “laws” at work, which. . . Paul actually calls “covenants”: a covenant of law, which promises blessing upon perfect obedience and curses for any transgression, and a covenant of promise, which promises blessing as a gift resulting from the personal performance of another. Both covenants have the same goal, promise the same blessings, and threaten the same curses. However, according to one, the blessing is attained by us personally, and in the other, it is bestowed as an inheritance" (Introducing Covenant Theology, 36).


Here's the writers breakdown of Galatians 3 (from the link supplied)


3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law (Mosaic covenant), or by hearing (the gospel) with faith?

3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?

3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law (Mosaic covenant), or by hearing (the gospel) with faith?

3:6 Even so Abraham “BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Abrahamic covenant, Genesis 15:6).

3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

3:8 The Scripture (i.e., Genesis), foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU” (Abrahamic covenant, Genesis 12:3).

3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law (Mosaic covenant) are under a curse (cf. Deuteronomy 27); for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM” (Deuteronomy 27:26).

3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law (Mosaic covenant) before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH” (Habakkuk 2:4).

3:12 However, the Law (Mosaic covenant) is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM” (Mosaic covenant, Leviticus 18:5).

3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE” (Mosaic covenant, Deuteronomy 21:23) —

3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

3:15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.

3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law (Mosaic covenant), which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant (Abrahamic covenant) previously ratified by God (Genesis 15), so as to nullify the promise (Genesis 12:3).

3:18 For if the inheritance is based on law (Mosaic covenant), it is no longer based on a promise (Abrahamic covenant); but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise (Abrahamic covenant).

3:19 Why the Law (Mosaic covenant) then? It (Mosaic covenant) was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

3:21 Is the Law (Mosaic covenant) then contrary to the promises (Abrahamic covenant) of God? May it never be! For if a law (Mosaic covenant) had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (Mosaic covenant).

3:22 But the Scripture (Mosaic covenant) has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Abrahamic covenant).

3:23 But before faith came (i.e., the new covenant era after the completed work of Christ), we were kept in custody under the law (Mosaic covenant; old covenant era, which lasted 1500 years), being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed (i.e., the coming of Christ in fulfillment; the new covenant era).

3:24 Therefore the Law (Mosaic covenant) has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith (like Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant; cf. Genesis 15:6/Gal. 3:6).

3:25 But now that faith has come (faith in Christ who has come; the new covenant era), we are no longer under a tutor (Mosaic covenant/old covenant era).

3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise (Abrahamic covenant).

 

[Dave G]

Show me one passage that says the man must be born again to believe.

Dave,
I believe that this was shown to you before in several threads, was it not? Even so, let's visit it again for the benefit of those who may not have seen it.

Given what Paul has told us in his letter to the Romans ( specifically Romans 1, 2, 3, and 8 ) , what the Lord told the unbelieving Jews in John 8, what He told Nicodemus in John 3:19-20, and that He told the Pharisees in John 5:40, what is the condition of men's hearts apart from God making the spiritually blind to see?

" For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." ( Romans 8:5-8 ). <-----The carnal mind, that mind which is common to all of mankind ( and even to God's elect prior to Him opening their hearts so that they attend unto His words, Acts 16:13-14 ), is at odds with God, and we are unwilling to listen to His words.

In addition, the reason for unbelief is spelled out by the Lord Jesus Himself:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ) <----Those who are not "of" God ( His elect ) do not hear and understand, spiritually, His words. According to this, one must be "of" God to do so.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:26-28 ). <----- Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews here why they did not believe...because they were not His sheep, not the other way around. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him....the others do not.

Also, what did He do for Lydia?

" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts 16:14 ).

He opened her heart, so that she "listened" to God's word.
I understand this to be God's gift of the new birth, and it is not given to everyone. It was given to Lydia, and for a specific purpose...so that she would listen to what God gave Paul to preach.


Dave, God does answer what you've asked for, and He does so in His word... and it's answered in the details of why someone believes, what He does for blind and deaf sinners, and who those sinners are:


His elect, the foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8 ).

 

[Dave G]

BTW, "the faith of Christ". Lets get into that.

The idea is that's it's Christ's faith, and not ours, right? And it actually is a faith that is a gift, so literally, it's His faith.....But we must understand the context of that statement, for without that context, we would end up with one of the greatest errors of Calvinism. The "faith" of Christ, that's just another way of saying the life, the faith, it's all of God. But that faith/life/grace/gift from God is what we receive after we receive the indwelling Spirit, who is the life, who is Jesus, who is grace, whose "faith", in that context is a gift. But all of that is the result of our first believing.

I'm sorry Dave, but I must disagree with you on this, and I do so with regret...
Because I really do wish that you could see what I see in the details.

Nevertheless, I'll go ahead and point out why I see it the way that I do, and how I have come to understand that my faith, even though it is mine and that it belongs to me, was not always "mine" until the Lord Himself gave it to me.
Reading along carefully, I see these statements:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast. " ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ). <---- By grace am I saved through ( not "because of" or "due to" ) faith...
And that faith is not "of" ( "by or from" ) myself, but rather, it is the gift of God.

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ( Galatians 2:15-16 ) <----- It's the faith "of" Jesus Christ, not "of" myself... just as Paul tells me in Ephesians 2. By this faith are we as believers in Christ, justified.... not by our own "human-generated" or "required" faith.

That faith that Abraham was justified by in Romans 4?
It's the same faith that the Roman believers were justified by in Romans 5, and the same faith that all who are God's elect are justified by.

Because of this miraculous gift, anything good that we do as His children by faith pleases God...and the amazing part? He gave us that faith, thereby guaranteeing that He gets all the glory for us even doing anything that pleases Him. Therefore, my belief of His words was a result of His election, His calling, and His gifts of the new birth and the faith of Jesus Christ.

Not only do believers have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:16 ), we have the faith of Christ as well. That's why, at the end of the day ( and like Paul ), I can say:


" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. " ( Galatians 2:20 ).

 

[Dave G]

So...
Our "father" Abraham?

Justified at the cross by Christ's blood ( Romans 5 ), shown to be one of God's elect and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ when he believed God ( Romans 4 ), and justified by good works ( James 2 ) again, when he believed God and then acted upon that belief.

God alone is responsible for opening the eyes of the blind, and causing them to see, to believe and to act, by faith.
Not robots, but rather alive from the dead, spiritually.
He gets all the glory for saving anyone, and we, as His people, will forever glorify Him for those unmerited gifts.


That said, I will make these my final replies in this thread.
I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you.

 

[Deacon]

B) When his faith was credited as righteous.

Prior to the ritual of circumcision; else Paul would not have been able to say that works were not a part righteousness.

Romans 4:9b–10 (ESV)
For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
How then was it counted to him?
Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

Rob