lets see how this goes

[Its_real_for me !]

I have been born again for 30 years and struggles are tough. Coming from a abusive background and PTSD has been a hindrance.

This world, as you all know, can be sometimes more than a challenge, for some.

Since I've been saved by Grace, My wife and I been in 4 churches. The first was fine but as a new believer accountability was an issue, second church was better but again, the same, accountability. The third, after the long time Pastor, that only pastored and not worked outside the church, passed, the congregation remained in numbers, but the accountability suffered. What does the word of God say about accountability ? From my experience it's not dealt with as it should.

Now at, what some think, our fourth church, and alot of folks use the end of Matthew 18, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18 is about church discipline, not about a churches congregation numbers.

I have always had a problem with Baptist churches. The "church", with 10 faithful attending people, we're at now is traditional hymns and no contemporary music. The Pastor, that always had to work outside the church, which is a big deal that effects the ministry, of 41 years passed and left with one Deacon, big load I guess.

The "style" is always at the forefront of the structure of worship and teaching, preaching and most of all evangelism. I cringe when I hear a guest speaker say that to me. The last one who spoke was absurd as I heard in many years. The worst at a Baptist tent meeting and I guess what they called a revival meeting.

What is wrong with it ? You may ask? Well it's quite simple..... Gods word should be final, and forceful preaching and teaching shouldn't be.

 

[JonC]

The Bible presents congregations as being accountable to one another. This is not just in terms of church discipline (which should be helping another overcome sin or refrain from sin). It is also functioning as a member of one body.

But the Bible also presents a congregation in the context of community. One attending a church service on Sunday is not being a part of that congregation. It is more active, more involved, more genuine.

I am not sure what you mean by "style". If a congregation bans contemporary songs, or bans traditional songs, that is probably not a good church (they probably place tradition over authentic worship).

 

[Its_real_for me !]

The Bible presents congregations as being accountable to one another. This is not just in terms of church discipline (which should be helping another overcome sin or refrain from sin). It is also functioning as a member of one body.

But the Bible also presents a congregation in the context of community. One attending a church service on Sunday is not being a part of that congregation. It is more active, more involved, more genuine.

I am not sure what you mean by "style". If a congregation bans contemporary songs, or bans traditional songs, that is probably not a good church (they probably place tradition over authentic worship).

Whenever you ask someone or not accept shouting preachers they respond "oh it's just thier style"

Didn't mean traditional, shouldn't have said that. More just old hymns. Contemporary music ,7-11 songs, empty melodies, and choruses do not belong in a worship service, a worship service is just that, worshipping God, and contemporary music is not God honoring and is not authentic worship. Think about why David did not play his music in the temple..... because it didn't belong there.

 

[JonC]

Whenever you ask someone or not accept shouting preachers they respond "oh it's just thier style"

Didn't mean traditional, shouldn't have said that. More just old hymns. Contemporary music ,7-11 songs, empty melodies, and choruses do not belong in a worship service, a worship service is just that, worshipping God, and contemporary music is not God honoring and is not authentic worship. Think about why David did not play his music in the temple..... because it didn't belong there.

Ah. I get that. I do not like to hear shouting preachers (or preachers who try to talk in Early Modern English). Too showy and unauthentic.

I do not prefer old hymns (they were a shift in Christian music designed to teach theology, which is important, but contemporary worship music is closer to psalms).

I know David did not play music in the Temple (the Temple was built by Soloman, after David). I do not know if David personally played music in the Tabernacle, but David wrote many psalms to be sung in the Tabernacle accompanied by several different types of musical instruments.

In the Temple worship music included drums, horns and stringed instruments. But the style was different. Harmony did not exist in ancient Hebrew culture and traditions (harmony is the main component to our hymns, but that is because we live in a Western culture). Temple music is described in the Bible as including shouting, loud drums and loud horns. I assume they also had quieter songs (since stringed instruments were used).

Not sure what 7-11 songs are. Never heard of that.


What I meant is any church that excludes the worship of Christians based on style (whether old hymns or contemporary worship songs) is a distracted church that needs to fade away.

 

[JonC]

@Its_real_for me !

Here is an example of a contemporary song I believe is close to what we would hear in the Tabernacle (but we would sing with harmony, and use different types of the instruments they would use).

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
To him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
Who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
Who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
Who made the great lights—
His love endures forever.
The sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
The moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.
To him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
And brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
With a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.
To him who divided the Red Sea[a] asunder
His love endures forever.
And brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
To him who led his people through the wilderness;
His love endures forever.
To him who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
And killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
And Og king of Bashan—
His love endures forever.
And gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
An inheritance to his servant Israel.
His love endures forever.
He remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
And freed us from our enemies.
His love endures forever.
He gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

@Its_real_for me !

Here is an example of a contemporary song I believe is close to what we would hear in the Tabernacle (but we would sing with harmony, and use different types of the instruments they would use).

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
To him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
Who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
Who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
Who made the great lights—
His love endures forever.
The sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
The moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.
To him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
And brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
With a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.
To him who divided the Red Sea[a] asunder
His love endures forever.
And brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
To him who led his people through the wilderness;
His love endures forever.
To him who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
And killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
And Og king of Bashan—
His love endures forever.
And gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
An inheritance to his servant Israel.
His love endures forever.
He remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
And freed us from our enemies.
His love endures forever.
He gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.
Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.

Repetitious and draining.....I remember how empty in sounded at a church we were members at for a very short time. They started with old hymns and went to that "song" you posted !

a distracted church that needs to fade away.

Kinda like that ridiculous song you posted.

show me in the new Testament about playing the type of musical instruments you mentioned in the tabernacle ?

 

[JonC]

Kinda like that ridiculous song you posted.

That ridiculous song is Psalm 136.

This is what I have been saying is the problem in churches today. Men, like you, are trapped in tradition and in bondage to a benign theological faith. You cannot worship biblically because you literally reject biblical worship music in favor of what is traditional to you.

BUT why? Why do you demean Christians who literally sing psalms when we are told to sing psalms and hymns?

It has caused you to call God's Word "ridiculous, repetitious and draining".


And no New Testament passage speaks of the music in the Tabernacle as the Tabernacle had not existed since the 10th century BC (900 years before Jesus was born). While the Temple used musical instruments, the New Testament is not about the Temple (the Temple practices are not mentioned).

You do have Ephesians 5:19, which instructs us to sing psalms (which are accompanied by instruments), hymns and spiritual songs. But this was to churches, not the Temple.

 

[JonC]

@Its_real_for me !

You insist you left a church because they sang psalms like Psalm 136, which you see as "ridiculous, repetitious and draining"

But this means you would have left the Early Church as well.

What do you find so ridiculous about Psalm 136?

 

[Its_real_for me !]

@Its_real_for me !

You insist you left a church because they sang psalms like Psalm 136, which you see as "ridiculous, repetitious and draining"

But this means you would have left the Early Church as well.

What do you find so ridiculous about Psalm 136?

ok. so........ it is the 136 Psalm, and.. it's not the entire Psalm, is it ? It fragments, kinda like the daily bread devotional that I hadn't read in decades now I read Feature devotional with my wife that has MEAT. Old hymns lyrics such as Fanny Crosby has MEAT compared to the fragmented Psalm that has the same harmony in each verse, copy ?

 

[JonC]

ok. so........ it is the 136 Psalm, and.. it's not the entire Psalm, is it ? It fragments, kinda like the daily bread devotional that I hadn't read in decades now I read Feature devotional with my wife that has MEAT. Old hymns lyrics such as Fanny Crosby has MEAT compared to the fragmented Psalm that has the same harmony in each verse, copy ?

Um...no....it is the entire psalm.

The "meat" is God's enduring love.

Fanny Crosby mostly wrote about what man has gained in Christ. This is not bad, but the "meat" is God Himself.

 

[canadyjd]

Repetitious and draining.....I remember how empty in sounded at a church we were members at for a very short time. They started with old hymns and went to that "song" you posted !

Kinda like that ridiculous song you posted.

show me in the new Testament about playing the type of musical instruments you mentioned in the tabernacle ?

Well, I’ll offer this advice to you.

Focus on yourself and your family.

Practice spiritual disciplines. Bible intake, prayer, meditation (on scripture), fasting, singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs

Then focus on others.

Develop your own ministry. Help someone, or many.

What are you bringing to the Christian community you are attending that edifies and encourages the Pastor, leadership, membership?

I once knew a church member who decided everyone should worship the way he thought best. Sermons should limited to 15 mins. Services limited to about 45 minutes. There were only about 8-10 hymns he believed worthy of singing in church and should be sung every week.

He was bitter, always upset about something.

There was no joy in his Christian life.

From your limited posts, I simply do not see any evidence of joy in your Christian life. Just of list of complaints about congregations that don’t meet your standards.

I find that very sad.

Peace to you

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Um...no....it is the entire psalm.

The "meat" is God's enduring love.

entertaining. It's not suppose to be entertaining but instead, God being glorified not guitars, drums, organs, to "spice up" the worship service.



On the other hand The pastor that recently passed last year from the church we are attending took it personal about people not serving decided to call them out without naming them but talking about thier personal sin, and drove them out.



I still don't like contemporary music compared to old hymns that have melodies, than bad melodies that really have no composer.
Fanny Crosby mostly wrote about what man has gained in Christ. This is not bad, but the "meat" is God Himself.

Got a question for you..... are you ok with female pastors, say a youth pastor or at the pulpit preaching ?

 

[Its_real_for me !]

Well, I’ll offer this advice to you.

Focus on yourself and your family.

Practice spiritual disciplines. Bible intake, prayer, meditation (on scripture), fasting, singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs

Then focus on others.

Develop your own ministry. Help someone, or many.

What are you bringing to the Christian community you are attending that edifies and encourages the Pastor, leadership, membership?

I once knew a church member who decided everyone should worship the way he thought best. Sermons should limited to 15 mins. Services limited to about 45 minutes. There were only about 8-10 hymns he believed worthy of singing in church and should be sung every week.

He was bitter, always upset about something.

There was no joy in his Christian life.

From your limited posts, I simply do not see any evidence of joy in your Christian life. Just of list of complaints about congregations that don’t meet your standards.

I find that very sad.

Peace to you

Bitter, no. Always upset about something? Just evangelists being to loud and too long winded. Like Jeckle and Hyde personalities. Other than your weird avatar, you have some valid points but none that refer to me other than just the one thing about being exposed to Baptist evangelists, going overboard.

 

[JonC]

Got a question for you..... are you ok with female pastors, say a youth pastor or at the pulpit preaching ?

No. I am very conservative.

I am just against valuing tradition over the gospel of Jesus Christ (I have watched many churches die for loosing their "First Love").

I keep abreast of movements within churches, where God is working visably and where "churches" become nothing more than social organizations (whether by clinging to traditional or embracing the World).

I have seen "churches" that are reduced to less than 50 members because they prioritize preferences and new churches who have reached over a hundred with the gospel (mostly people in their 20's and 30's) because they intentionally seek to "be a light".

Often the music style issue falls into this type of discussion. People want to force their preferences on others. It has always been this way.

When the old hymns were new, the traditional Christians objected. They would have been fine with Psalm 136, but not the lyrics of our old hymns.

 

[JonC]

Bitter, no. Always upset about something? Just evangelists being to loud and too long winded. Like Jeckle and Hyde personalities. Other than your weird avatar, you have some valid points but none that refer to me other than just the one thing about being exposed to Baptist evangelists, going overboard.

@canadyjd 's avatar is from Elder Scrolls, if I am not mistaken. I liked Oblivion (its pretty old). That was the last I completed.


I do not like to see preachers make a service into a show. Sometimes this is with traditional worship styles (old hymns, solemn atmosphere, faux sacredness.....the worst is praying in Elizabethian English). Sometimes it is elevating oneself with long sermons (typically offering Greek or Hebrew words to demonstrate intelligence). Sometimes it is lights and smoke machines.

I prefer authentic worship. This is in a style authentic to the congregation. I prefer a preacher saying what needs to be said and then making good use of the remaining time.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

No. I am very conservative.

I am just against valuing tradition over the gospel of Jesus Christ (I have watched many churches die for loosing their "First Love").

I keep abreast of movements within churches, where God is working visably and where "churches" become nothing more than social organizations (whether by clinging to traditional or embracing the World).

I have seen "churches" that are reduced to less than 50 members because they prioritize preferences and new churches who have reached over a hundred with the gospel (mostly people in their 20's and 30's) because they intentionally seek to "be a light".

Often the music style issue falls into this type of discussion. People want to force their preferences on others. It has always been this way.

When the old hymns were new, the traditional Christians objected. They would have been fine with Psalm 136, but not the lyrics of our old hymns.

Old hymns have theology and personal experiences, no I don't believe it's pushed, but I do believe that contemporary, regardless of how old hymns were taken when new were and old hymns are more substantiable than todays feel good music that is sensationalized. These Churches are on the bound and less rooted to theologically sound and infiltrate more less conservative theology, ie; bad leadership, female pastors, relaxed unrespectable attire in church, etc....

 

[JonC]

Old hymns have theology and personal experiences, no I don't believe it's pushed, but I do believe that contemporary, regardless of how old hymns were taken when new were and old hymns are more substantiable than todays feel good music that is sensationalized. These Churches are on the bound and less rooted to theologically sound and infiltrate more less conservative theology, ie; bad leadership, female pastors, relaxed unrespectable attire in church, etc....

I like songs that are theologically rich, but many old hymns also have subjective theology (doctrine that goes beyond the Bible).

Think of Fanny Crosby and her ministry as a Methodist teaching theology (her pulpit was music, her sermon lyrics). You accept her teachings but call my singing of Psalm 136 ridiculous.

More importantly, though, songs designed to teach theology (beyond passages) are relatively new. This was one reason old traditionalists rejected our old hymns when our old hymns were new.

Experience is also good to relate through song. Many of the Psalms do exactly this. Many contemporary worship songs do as well. But this was also an objection against our old hymns when they were new.

We sing anout Spafford's loss of his family while trusting God when we sing "It is Well with my Soul". We sing about the comfort the daughters of St Mary's clergyman when we sing "Just as I Am". We sing about Newton's conversion when we sing "Amazing Grace".

All of that is good as we can relate their testimonies to our lives.

But there is still a place to sing in praise to God. The Psalms still have a place.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

I like songs that are theologically rich, but many old hymns also have subjective theology (doctrine that goes beyond the Bible).

Think of Fanny Crosby and her ministry as a Methodist teaching theology (her pulpit was music, her sermon lyrics). You accept her teachings but call my singing of Psalm 136 ridiculous.

More importantly, though, songs designed to teach theology (beyond passages) are relatively new. This was one reason old traditionalists rejected our old hymns when our old hymns were new.

Experience is also good to relate through song. Many of the Psalms do exactly this. Many contemporary worship songs do as well. But this was also an objection against our old hymns when they were new.

We sing anout Spafford's loss of his family while trusting God when we sing "It is Well with my Soul". We sing about the comfort the daughters of St Mary's clergyman when we sing "Just as I Am". We sing about Newton's conversion when we sing "Amazing Grace".

All of that is good as we can relate their testimonies to our lives.

But there is still a place to sing in praise to God. The Psalms still have a place.

I never said the Psalm is ridiculous, I said the melody is ridiculous and don't create a melody in our hearts. I remember at a member meeting voting on a pastor, while waiting on the count, we sang Alca pela old hymns.. and I couldn't believe my eyes watching others sing how joyful we sang compared to your "psalm songs" ! People were disinterested. Don't tell me Psalm songs are better.

Old hymns subjective theology ? "Updated" bible versions are subjective. You're splitting hairs here !

 

[Mike B]

I never said the Psalm is ridiculous, I said the melody is ridiculous and don't create a melody in our hearts. I remember at a member meeting voting on a pastor, while waiting on the count, we sang Alca pela old hymns.. and I couldn't believe my eyes watching others sing how joyful we sang compared to your "psalm songs" ! People were disinterested. Don't tell me Psalm songs are better.

1 Chronicles 16..8-10

8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people.

9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.

10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.


Can't speak for others, but I sing to the Lord for one reason only, and that is to pour out my
love and praise for the Lord in song, to Him. I'm not singing to please you, or the congregation,
I'm singing to God..my voice is horrible, and I don't care because my heart is reaching out to my Lord
and Savior.

The Psalms were written over a lengthy period of time, and were meant to be sung. I think of David
pouring his heart out to the Lord in song..same with Solomon, and others.

 

[Its_real_for me !]

1 Chronicles 16..8-10

8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people.

9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.

10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.


Can't speak for others, but I sing to the Lord for one reason only, and that is to pour out my
love and praise for the Lord in song, to Him. I'm not singing to please you, or the congregation,
I'm singing to God..my voice is horrible, and I don't care because my heart is reaching out to my Lord
and Savior.

The Psalms were written over a lengthy period of time, and were meant to be sung. I think of David
pouring his heart out to the Lord in song..same with Solomon, and others.

Your version a watered down version, son, is incorrect.... verse nine does not say sing psalms unto him.

KJV Sing to him, sing praise to him.....

Ephesians 5:19

Speaking to yourselves in Psalms and hymns and Spiritual songs....singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.

A psalm isn't necessarily a particular harmony, but a melody or song sung with stringed instruments. (piano is good enough)

In my heart there rings a melody, there rings a melody, something that carries to make one joyous. I heard and TRIED to like your "Psalm songs" and DID NOT make or ring a melody, and watch numerous times two congregations that tried to rely on melody's that were not even close to carried tune or Phrase to make any sense. I would say, David and Solomon were better at making a phrase or phrases. Jews have thier melody in thier eastern culture, kind of like a Indian sitar, which I can't stand to listen to but the Beatles under the influence of hallucinogenics, did.