• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is the KJV too difficult?

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
The KJV is not nearly as difficult to understand as many make it out to be.

However, the sentence structure in many passages brings about unnecessary confusion to 21st century readers. KJVO types who refuse to "correct" anything often misinterpret certain passages thus leading to error. We need to be mindful of this and at the very least, learn the different nuances between 17th Century and 21st Century English and understand how to explain such to their respective congregations.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The question is not native versus non‑native English speakers. The question is whether a reader is willing to elevate to the language of the preserved text. Early modern English is learnable for anyone who approaches it with patience and reverence. We should not settle for a translation built on a reconstructed and unstable textual foundation when the preserved text is available to us.

Why do you think that the KJV is the only preserved text?

Do you think modern bibles just dropped in any word they felt like doing?

Why ask someone to struggle with the 1769 KJV when it is not necessary?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The KJV is not nearly as difficult to understand as many make it out to be.
While I have read the KJV for over 60 years, it may be harder to understand than many of its readers realize. Sometimes readers of the KJV are reading different meanings into its words than what was intended in its Early Modern English.

Even something as seeming simple as prepositions which present readers think that they know may have been used in an uncommon or archaic sense in the 1611 KJV.

Concerning prepositions, J. B. Lightfoot (1828-1889) wrote: “The misunderstandings which arise in the mind of an English readers are due in most passages rather to the archaisms than to the error of the translators. Where, in common language, we now say ‘by’ and ‘through’ (i.e., ‘by means of’) respectively, our translators, following the diction of their age, generally use ‘of’ and ‘by’ respectively—‘of’ denoting the agent, and ‘by’ the instrument or means” (Fresh Revision, p. 107). J. B. Lightfoot asserted: “From these archaisms great ambiguity arises. When we hear ‘it was said of him,’ we understand at once ‘about or concerning him,’ but this is not the meaning which this preposition bears in our New Testament. And again, when we read ‘it was sent by me,’ we understand ‘I sent it,’ but neither again is this the meaning intended. In the modern language ‘by’ represents the sender, whereas in the old it denotes the bearer of the letter or parcel” (p. 108). J. B. Lightfoot claimed: “In all such passages the ambiguous ‘by’ is a serious obstacle to the understanding of the English reader” (p. 110).

Concerning English in the KJV, David Crystal wrote: “Several prepositions have different uses from today. Of, in particular, is widespread: the zeal of (‘for’) thine house, tempted of (‘by’) Satan, went forth of (‘from’) the Arke. Other examples include in (‘at’) a good old age, taken to (as a) wife, and like as (‘like’, ‘as’) the sand of the sea” (Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English, p. 65). Concerning the KJV, John Eadie asserted: “The prepositions are not in all cases justly distinguished” (English Bible, Vol. II, p. 365). John Eadie noted: “‘By’ itself is equivocal, for it is sometimes connected with the original cause, and sometimes with the instrumental cause. It might be often rendered ‘through’ [1 Cor. 8:6] ‘Jesus Christ, through whom are all things’” (English Bible, Vol. II, p. 366). At its entry by, the 1828 Webster’s Dictionary gives as its third definition the following: “Through, or with, denoting the agent, means, instrument or cause.”
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
EXCELLENT QUESTIONS !!
For another post perhaps, this one asked two simple questions: Is the KJV too hard and by what measure.
Why do you think that the KJV is the only preserved text?

Do you think modern bibles just dropped in any word they felt like doing?

Why ask someone to struggle with the 1769 KJV when it is not necessary?
And we are getting off topic here. Let us stay with the questions that were asked.
 

Mikoo

Active Member
I understand the preference for modern English, but my assertion is simply that the Word of God is worth the effort to learn the vocabulary and categories Scripture uses. Difficulty is not a defect. It is an invitation to grow. The early English Bibles are not too difficult; they are simply more precise than the flattened English we use today. So I do not agree that ease of reading should determine which Bible is ‘more beneficial.’ Scripture deserves that we elevate our understanding to meet its language.
Why not? - Scripture deserves that we increase our ease of reading God's Word to elevate our understanding of God's Word
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Who rejected the KJV, and when? And how does that relate to the question of difficulty?
The English people and bishops. In the 17th century.

I do not understand the "dificulty" question.

It is not that Jacobean English is difficult. It is that it is not used today. Your KJV was updated to make it easier to read. Now that updated version is antiquated.

Is Greek difficult to read? Not if you learn Greek. Is German difficult to read? Not if you learn German. Is Jacobean English difficult to read? Not if you learn Jacobean English. Is the modern KJV difficult to read? Not if you learn the updated Jacobean English.


But what had God done. That is the question. What type of language did He choose for the NT?

God could have chosen the archaic but formal and eloquent Greek of the 1st Century (Attic Greek).

BUT He didn't. He chose the common language of the people (Koine Greek).

Was Attic Greek difficult? Not if you learned the dialect. It was what the language of the KJV is to us (or was centuries ago).

But God rejected Attic Greek, what men considered eloquent, in favor of the language used by common people.
 

Mikoo

Active Member
For another post perhaps, this one asked two simple questions: Is the KJV too hard and by what measure.

And we are getting off topic here. Let us stay with the questions that were asked.
Again, you make statements and then when people react or ask questions about your statements you go back to, 'staying on topic, we are getting off topic or stay with the question asked, etc.' Can't have it both ways.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Is the KJV too hard and by what measure.
This depends on how you measure difficulty.

Is the KJV too hard if one takes the time to study Jacobean English? No.

Has it proven to be too hard for many preachers using the KJV? Yes.

Is it a difficulty, regardless of the extent of difficulty, that runs contrary to how God gave His Word? Yes.


The Lutherbibel (Luther's translation) is mot difficult. The German language is not difficult (and I am not good with learning languages). BUT German is not the language spoken by common people in the US today.



The question is not how difficult it is for people today to read modernized Jacobean English.

The question is why Christians would object to using a translation of God's Word in the vernacular of the people today.

It goes against the principles set by God when the New Testsment was recorded in the language of the common people. So why?

The reason goes back to Roman paganism and was tied to music as well. It is using what men considered to be elevated language, a superficial sacredness, ignoring that God came to common men rather than the elite of this world.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I understand the preference for modern English, but my assertion is simply that the Word of God is worth the effort to learn the vocabulary and categories Scripture uses.
But the KJV is not that language.

Is God's Word worth the time to learn the Greek (Koine Greek that used by the common men)?

There are many instances where English itself is insufficient. So why not take the time to learn Greek and Hebrew?
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Who rejected the KJV, and when? And how does that relate to the question of difficulty?
The Puritans. Those who fled across the Atlantic to avoid persection, took the Geneva Bible with them, and during the English Civil War, it was the Cavaliers who would have been reading the KJV, while the Roundhead soldiers stuck with their Geneva Bibles.
The issue is not simply having more than one Bible available. The issue is that modern versions are built on different translation methods and different underlying texts, and they do not say the same things. That is where confusion arises.
I simply don't believe that this is so. I have said before that my own preference is for the NKJV, but my church uses the NIV (1984). So, to avoid difficulties, I use the NIV when I preach. I don't find any difficulty. In 99% of the Bible, the differnces are so minor as to be irrelevant. In the other 1% I simply make my view known and move on. I don't find any trouble at all.
Now, our NIV (1984) pew Bibles are getting a bit tatty, so we are discussing what to replace them with. I do have a problem with the 2011 NIV because of its Gender-neutral stance, though I have only found three places where it is a real issue. I am hoping therefore that we shall end up with the ESV, which has now become apparently the best-selling Bible version in the U.K. and is certainly the favourite among Reformed churches.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Well-Known Member
I'm saying this with all due respect. The question (Is the KJV too hard?) is not all that you have discussed. You have made many statements that those on this thread are responding to and should be allowed to respond to.
I did answer questions earlier, but that was a mistake on my part. I’ve provided a separate thread for discussions on text and translation, and that is where those questions belong. Here, I’m keeping the conversation limited to the two questions in the OP. That door is now closed..
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm saying this with all due respect. The question (Is the KJV too hard?) is not all that you have discussed. You have made many statements that those on this thread are responding to and should be allowed to respond to.
He can shuck and jive but weren’t not allowed to.

#DoubleStandard
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I did answer questions earlier, but that was a mistake on my part. I’ve provided a separate thread for discussions on text and translation, and that is where those questions belong. Here, I’m keeping the conversation limited to the two questions in the OP. That door is now closed..
With all due respect, I don’t think you have the authority to dictate what we can and cannot post in any thread. If you make a post, we will post what we think is relevant to your post.
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ronald Bridges and Luther Weigle wrote: “Obsolete uses of the preposition ‘at’ appear in Exodus 19:15, ‘come not at your wives,’ and Numbers 6:6, ‘he shall come at no dead body’” (KJB Wordbook, p. 31). Other uncommon uses may be in Numbers 30:4, ‘hold his peace at her’” and in Numbers 35:11, “at unawares.” Another uncommon use of “at” in the KJV would be in the phrase “set them at one again” (Acts 7:26). Does Matthew 23:24 have an additional uncommon use of “at” [“strain at a gnat”]? Lindley Murray wrote: “It ought to be, ‘which strain out a gnat, or, take a gnat out of the liquor by straining it.’ The impropriety of the preposition has wholly destroyed the meaning of the phrase” (English Grammar, p. 176).

Concerning Psalm 104:21, John Earle noted that some of the pre-1611 English Bibles had “at God” (Psalter, p. 328). At Psalm 104:21, the 1560 Geneva Bible has “seek their meat at God,” and the 1611 KJV updated that to “seek their meat from God.” Concerning “at God,” John Earle asserted: “It is true English; a noble archaism. This use of the preposition ‘at’ with persons was frequent in Anglo-Saxon” (Psalter, p. 328) John Earle noted: “The second of these archaisms is at God, where now we have ‘from God’” (p. xlviii).

At 1 Samuel 30:8, the KJV may have another uncommon or archaic use of the preposition “at”-- “David enquired at the LORD,” which may be based on the 1568 Bishops’ Bible’s “asked counsel at the Lord.” The 1568 Bishops’ Bible also has “asked counsel at the Lord” at 2 Samuel 2:1, which was updated to “enquired of the LORD” in the KJV. The 1568 Bishops’ Bible has “asked counsel at God” at 1 Chronicles 14:10 which the KJV updated to “enquired of God.” The 1568 Bishops’ Bible has “asked again at God” (1 Chron. 14:14), but the KJV revised it to “enquired again of God.” At 1 Chronicles 21:30, the 1568 Bishops’ Bible has “ask counsel at God” while the KJV revised it to “enquire of God.”

At Jeremiah 25:17, the KJV seems to have followed the 1560 Geneva Bible’s rendering “cup at the Lord’s hand” instead of the 1568 Bishops’ Bible’s rendering “cup from the Lord’s hand.” Did the KJV translators inconsistently update a “noble archaism” in some of the pre-1611 English Bibles when they should have kept the archaism according to some KJV-only claims which assert that archaic words are to be retained?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
With all due respect, I don’t think you have the authority to dictate what we can and cannot post in any thread. If you make a post, we will post what we think is relevant to your post.
Correct. The "off topic" complaint only applies to the first several posts. As with any discussion the initial topic becomes a bit fluid. Thread drift is normal.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Correct. The "off topic" complaint only applies to the first several posts. As with any discussion the initial topic becomes a bit fluid. Thread drift is normal.
It’s not like I’m going rouge but addressing the content of his posts. Like I told him earlier, threads ebb and flow but tend to drift back to the topic of the thread.
 

searchingtruths

New Member
Is the KJV too difficult?

Fifty‑four men were appointed at the Hampton Court Conference in 1604 to produce a translation of Scripture for the English churches. Their work has been read, preached, memorized, and lived in for more than four centuries from a text two thousand years old.

I am curious how difficulty is being measured.

~Tony
Not too difficult to me. I prefer it to the newer version which has changed the meaning of or intent of and deleted a few scriptures.
 
Top